Computer Proposal

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 2, 2007 - 4:00am
Computers should be streamlined. Available in several sizes, with each type capable of containing variable amounts of programs/software depending on size.

Sizes could be hand-held (like modern Palm Pilots etc), micro-portable (laptops), macro-portable (suitcase sized), desktop, and mainframe. Programs/software could be simply limited to functions without varying levels...say Analysis for calculations, Life Support for food/water/air regulation, etc rather than involving the complexity of different levels of programs as the ADE (Alpha Dawn Expanded) rules dictate.

Input?
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website
Comments:

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 2, 2007 - 11:26pm
Computers haven't figured in much with that I've played in the last few weeks, so I don't have much experience on where the complexity comes in....

Withouth levels, what is the differences between a PDA (Chronocom/BodyComp) or a Mainframe?


Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 3, 2007 - 2:40am

The expanded game has programs and function points...the total function points determines the computer level. I was considering just doing away with the levels and function points.


My suggestion was having smaller computers hold less programming/software than larger ones. So the PDA would hold something like three or four programs tops while the desktop holds eight to ten and the mainframe can hold as many as is needed/desired. I was kind of thinking about incorporating a streamlined version of Traveller computers...now if I could just find my Traveller Star Ships supplement book that might shed some light (or not).

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

CleanCutRogue's picture
CleanCutRogue
December 3, 2007 - 2:44pm
I think Shack's just meaning to sorta pre-make computers of a few sizes instead of presenting all the rules for defining computers.  That way we can have a few types and abstract the rest.

Is that what you're meaning?
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time.

-top 11 reasons to be a Yazirian, ShadowShack


jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 3, 2007 - 8:00pm
CleanCutRogue wrote:
I think Shack's just meaning to sorta pre-make computers of a few sizes instead of presenting all the rules for defining computers. That way we can have a few types and abstract the rest.

Is that what you're meaning?


That seems reasonable and "basic"....

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 4, 2007 - 11:11pm
Yeah, basing it on sizes is all I care for. Anything more and it's not basic. Even still, I need to know what the purpose of even size difference would be. Without skill levels, any kind of computer progression would be meaningless.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 5, 2007 - 1:39am
CleanCutRogue wrote:
I think Shack's just meaning to sorta pre-make computers of a few sizes instead of presenting all the rules for defining computers.  That way we can have a few types and abstract the rest.

Is that what you're meaning?


In a sense, with the premise that bigger computers are more "powerful". I'm going to search for my Traveller Starships supplement, I recall a really simple computer guideline mentioned in it that could suit the Basic Game well. Once I find it I'll "copy" it here to see what you guys think.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 5, 2007 - 3:35am
Okay I found my Traveller book...here's a converted sample of what might be feasible for Basic rules computers:

Computer TypeCost(Cr)Mass(kg)Storage
Hand-held  250 0.5  3
Portable (sm)  500  2  6
Portable (lg) 1,000  5  9
Desktop 5,000  20 12
Mainframe 20,000 100 20
Maxiframe 60,000 250 35

Each program (re: Analysis, Information Storage, etc) would be assigned a storage space number (probably say a value of 1 each unless it's an overly complicated program). Each program would have a defined function to flesh out the use of the computer.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

CleanCutRogue's picture
CleanCutRogue
December 5, 2007 - 2:26pm
Sounds like a really simple progression.  I'm on board.  Now all we need is a list of programs?  Or are you simply saying that a "program" will count as "1" unless the Referee states otherwise?
3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time.

-top 11 reasons to be a Yazirian, ShadowShack


Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 5, 2007 - 4:49pm
CleanCutRogue wrote:
Sounds like a really simple progression.  I'm on board.  Now all we need is a list of programs?  Or are you simply saying that a "program" will count as "1" unless the Referee states otherwise?


Right, I propose that each program allocates 1 space on a computer, unless it's a complicated program (like say a ship's drive program, in which case you need the higher capacity mainframe or maxiframe anyways). In other words, the ADE programs, if incorporated directly, would all be considered as 1 space each (with no levels).
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 5, 2007 - 7:03pm

Three levels (1, 10, 13) to keep certain programs on certain sized computers? (sizes picked to the left to reflect "portable", desktop, mainframe..... Although maybe re-size the computers so that a Mainframe could run 2-3 mainframe programs that are too big to run on a desktop? I don't like the 'ol one program per computer thing.....)

Not that I can say that I like this, really, but a single size doesn't sound quite right, either, although I suppose with Moore's law, do you need more than a watch and sunglasses with built in screen and surround sound (HUD)?


Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 5, 2007 - 11:31pm
Again, we're discussing the Basic game. If you have to sacrifice some realism for playability in the Expanded game, how much more so for the Basic game. Keep it simple.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 12, 2007 - 8:47pm
Revised Computer proposal:


Computer TypeCost(Cr)Mass(kg)Storage
Hand-held  250 0.5 4
Portable (sm)  500  2 8
Portable (lg) 1,000  512
Desktop 5,000  2024
Mainframe 20,000 10032
Maxiframe 60,000 25064

Computer Programs List
ProgramSpaceCost
Analysis  11000
Bureaucracy 22000
Commerce 33000
Communication 33000
Computer Security 22000
Industry 33000
Information Storage 22000
Installation Security 33000
Language 11000
Law Enforcement 44000
Life Support 44000
Maintenance 22000
Robot Management 22000
Transportation 33000


Spaceship Programs (expansion list)
ProgramSpaceCost
Alarm11000
Assault Rocket44000
Astrogation22000
Cargo Handling22000
Damage Control22000
Drive44000
Excavation22000
Interceptor Missile33000
Processing22000
Laboratory22000
Laser Battery4000
Laser Cannon33000
Rocket Battery44000
Torpedo33000


Program descriptions would echo the ADE descriptions, just no levels involved. This way a home computer would have enough space for personal use, a mainframe would be a business load, and a maxi0frame would be a city or starship computer capable of holding all the programs needed to function (albeit not every single program in one single computer...so no "super" computers)
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 12, 2007 - 10:39pm
Looks good. :)

jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 12, 2007 - 11:13pm
To play devils advocate, why would anyone buy a computer other than a hand-held?

16 handhelds have the same computing power as a Maxiframe, can run any program, will be less than 1/10th the cost at 1/30th the weight....




Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 12, 2007 - 11:34pm

Good point. How about a ruling that states that multiple coordinated programs can only be performed by a single computer...so that prevents the use of multiple handhelds for a ship or city.

Re: a city computer would have the following programs available:

Bureaucracy (to coordinate the other programs)
Commerce (for monitoring business/economics)
Communication (to relay chronocm signals, police/emergency band, Tri-vid networks, etc)
Industry (for any local factory/mining operations, hydroponics if a domed city, etc)
Information Storage (files etc)
Law Enforcement (for Star Law and local constubalaries)
Life Support (for coordinating fresh water supplies, oxygen for a dome city, etc)
Maintenance (upkeep)
Robot Management (any robotic coordination, such as worker & laborer bots)
Transportation (traffic control etc)


Along with the expanded Interceptor Missile, Laser Battery, and Rocket Battery programs for planetary defense in that area of the world.

Obviously such a network would require the Bureaucracy program to coordinate things like Communication, Info Storage, Law Enforcement, Maintenance, Robot Management, and Transportation as one group function. There are many other combos needed to run a city, as such you would never be able to do all that from a hand held unit.

An example for a hand held unit would be the Analysis and Language programs, along with one other 2 space program that suits a character's needs. Thus one possible combo for a hand held unit would be as a calculator/PolyVox, along with Information Storage so the character can record data and events as he proceeds along in the campaign.

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
December 13, 2007 - 9:43am
this has my stamp of approval ( I know, you didn't ask. lol )

I would also like the ability to "expand" my handheld slightly, not up to the next level of course.



jaguar451's picture
jaguar451
December 16, 2007 - 9:58pm
"Shadow Shack" wrote:
Good point. How about a ruling that states that multiple coordinated programs can only be performed by a single computer...so that prevents the use of multiple handhelds for a ship or city.


That could work, although how about adjusting the price a bit to make the low end more expensive / high end a little cheaper, so that the price per space goes down with the increase in total size? Given advances in networking, should be doable to create a "grid" of smaller computers.... Google, eBay, "grids" of Intel / Linux boxes, I believe....

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 16, 2007 - 11:06pm
Economics is a touchy thing in roleplaying, especially with Star Frontiers. I managed to straddle the fine line of economics and simplicity in my Buying and Selling article that I think elegantly handles the situation without providing whole huge lists of quality versus lemon. I think it better to express economics in its own mechanic rather than hard coding it into item costs and qualities. I recommend looking my article over and making any adjustments to it you think necessary for appeasing your need for economic variances in product costs and quality. That is in issue #6 of the Frontiersman, near the back.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 17, 2007 - 2:43am
Any chance yopu could reprint that Corjay? Or PM it to me? My dial up takes forever to download a PDF file that large.

Although after new year's I'll most likely spring the $15 for that B&W six issue compilation CCR is offering.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
December 17, 2007 - 2:03pm
Sure thing. Just click the link below for the min-PDF of just the article.

Buying And Selling (136kb)

By the way, where I wrote "PanGal" was actually supposed to be "Prenglar" (thus references to the heart of the Star Law and the UPF).

Also, this article is compatible with the Dragon Magazine articles "Rare Wines and Ready Cash" and "Tote That Barge!".

The haggling header in the article can be used in conjunction with the Haggling skill from Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space.

Gilbert's picture
Gilbert
January 6, 2008 - 8:12pm
  Hey, a good limitation would be to adjust the space used by the level of the program. Now you can't run the higher level programs so you would be lacking the full power. And, put a max level program it can run. I think SF covers this in the form of function points. Just some thoughts that we covered for the player that likes to make new programs in the game.

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
January 6, 2008 - 9:41pm
Well that's the catch. How far is too far? What you have proposed is no less difficult than the original rules. Generally, players that like to create new stuff and get into complexities aren't going to enjoy the basic version to begin with. If they do want the simplicity and still be able to do something like program new stuff, I suggest letting them do it without penalty. Often the best way to easy (basic) game mechanics is to ignore penalties and difficulties beyond the basic skill and situational modifiers.

In other words, what's the point to the Basic game if it's not going to be basic?

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
January 7, 2008 - 7:39am
Basically the current document has "Type" and "Drive Space".
Refer to: Computers (a document page from the Basic Plus project).


I don't think upgrades have been addressed. ?!?
I purchase a Portable (sm) with a DS of 8 and fill up its space. I want to add another program that will use 2 DS without having to purchase another computer. The next level computer is the Portable (lg) of 12 DS.

...or is this "in the weeds"? :-/


Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 9, 2008 - 3:56pm
I suppose the difference in cost between systems can be applied to upgrades. I'll go make the changes.
I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website