Time Line

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 25, 2012 - 8:17pm
As I have been working on the time line in Zeb's (hideous thing) I need some opinions on whether this is acceptable or needs a change.

230PF Pan-Galactic Corporation started on Gran Quivera.

150PF The Pan-Galactic language accepted throughout the Frontier as a common trade tongue.

37PF Pan-Galactic becomes the first megacorp in the Frontier.


So 80 years for them to become so big that their own langauge (which could not be 80 years old) it becomes the acceptable common tongue (before there is any unifying body like the UPF) BUT it takes another 113 years for them to become a megacorp

MEANWHILE

2FY The Streel Corporation is founded on Pale.

31FY New Streel system is discovered by the Streel Corporation.

50-60FY Laco's War. PGC and Streel wage the first Corporate War on Laco. The UPF eventually steps in and empowers an inter-megacorporate commission to resolve the differences. Other megacorps study Laco's War as a possible legal precedent for solving disputes.


Streel takes only 29 years from founding to become strong enough to find and claim a planet and at only 48 years old is powerful enough to challenge the 280 year old PGC
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?
Comments:

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
December 26, 2012 - 11:05am
If you wanted to keep it you could justify it by something along these lines:

PGC is the only game in town initially and worked hard to come up with some common way to allow for communication among the races.  The long time scale was simply due to interstellar travel being fairly uncommon (only a few ships maybe) so the need/opportunity to develope Pan-Gal was fairly low so it took a long time.

The long time to 1st Mega-corp status could simply be the definition of a mega-corp, they were everywhere but not huge everywhere or some "magical" threshold hadn't been reached and they finally crossed it.  Maybe they were still providing 90% of the goods but the populations were very small and so the total volume in goods and credits were small until 37PF.

All it takes to discover and claim a planet is a good ship and luck.  A good ship to make the jump without getting lost and luck to find a good planet there.  After that, if it is kept a secret for a while you can set up infrastructure and bases and colonize it and lay claim to it.  So I actually don't see that 29 year gap to be such a big deal or too short.  Well executed, you could do it in just a few years.

In my SFU, Streel Corporation is an outgrowth of Streele Mining on Pale after the first sathar war.  They grew big quick on Pale by being the main game in town during the rebuilding. (They had outlying facilities that managed to miss being destroyed in the bombardment).  That gave them a solid base and then they started intelligently and agressively expanding to other worlds.  I don't see why they couldn't grow big in just 48 years.  I also see a the Frontier population growing during this time as well so you can support more megacorps and grow them faster as well.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
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Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
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TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
December 26, 2012 - 11:09am
On the flip side of that, I see the prehistory of the Frontier stretching back 300+ years before the first sathar war just a little too long.  Unless for some reason there are only one or two FTL capable ships and everything is being done by "slowboat", the time spans between colonizations (and the relative positions based on the timing) make no sense.  Plus the older planets would have the larger populations.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 26, 2012 - 5:52pm
One thing this time line project has lead me to think is that the levels of technology and capabilities of the four races were not well thought out when the time line was created. For my own SF I have the homeworlds decided and am now trying to think of what order they could of discovered the planets and each other race.

Another thing is population growth. We are given the how the races reproduce but not what comes next. Gestation times, maturity times. Humans and Vrusk seem to be the fasted having settled the most worlds. Yazirians seem to do OK but keep to their own worlds. Dralasites have the fewest and seem to have been outpopulated on at least one Inner Reach.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

iggy's picture
iggy
December 27, 2012 - 10:19am
I agree, we do not know the reproduction rates of the core four.  I proposed some of this in the core four project for the dralsasites.  I detailed the reproduction of the dralasites but not the frequency.  l was quizzing terlobar about population growth trying to figure out how to pace the dralasites.  I do see the dralasites as a slower reproducing species, the vrusk are a faster reproducing species, and the yazirians are similar to humans but with litters rather than single births.
-iggy

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2012 - 1:13pm
Are Vrusk really the fastest reproducing species in the Frontier?

Consider this:

Colony 
Colonizers Population Level
 TerledromD/V
Heavy
 Ken'zah-Kit VModerate
 Zik-Kit VModerate
 Kwadl-Kit VLight
 Ringar VModerate
 CirceH/V
Light
 Kir'-KutH/V
Light
 KraatarV/H
Light
 
Now, where are the big vrusk population? Their lifespans are not that short that they die off fast.  so where are the colonies with heavy populations? like humanity has; Minotaur and Clarion.

Note that the order of colonizers when its two is peculiar only on Kraatar does the V appear first which to my mind says that when its two species as colonizers then the first one listed is the largest population.

Terledrom is interesting in that the vrusk discovered the dralasites and they have clearly been associating together for a while but the next over vrusk system is controlled from Fromeltar which says that Fromeltar is the older political entity. For me its about the only reasonable candidate for a vrusk homeworld despite the problems with it like a dralasite sounding name and dralasites dominating the system (Groth the second planet is all dralasite).

Also not covered above is Madderly's star and Kdikit and the free world rebellion where human colonist evicted the vrusk. Today Kdikit has a moderate population so its kind of low or at least was pretty low at the time of the rebellion.

I'm thinking the "hive" model of a vrusk civilization is beginning to look inadequate. there have been 5 out of 9 vrusk colonies where they colonized with another species and for at least two of them, Kdikit and Kraatar we know that the other species was on the bottom of the power structures or to put it another way the labor class. for Terledrom we know that the government is a combination of elected dralasites and a board of vrusk companies so its not hard to imagine that something similar went on here.

One real world example comes to mind- the dutch who never had enough dutch colonist for their colonies and to supliment the work force allowed anyone and everyone in which in tern meant that they lost control of their colonies (hence New Amsterdam is know by New York City).

I would propose that the vrusk while active in colonization actually have a slow reproduction rate and thus are quite willing to use other species to supliment the work force.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2012 - 1:32pm
I remembered this after the previous post but Both Circe and Ringar are listed in their planetary notes as being colonized by specific mega corps Synth Corp and  Wartech respectively. this makes them mega corp planets /systems though we are not prone to think of them in that light because they lack names like New Streel. However I wonder what it says about the mega corps involved that they founded what are not multirace colonies but simply 2 race colonies?

I think ultimately SynthCorp is a vrusk company and possibly Wartech as well.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 27, 2012 - 2:32pm
Going to digest this but one thing I will say quickly in that creating my character for the Old School campaign yesterday I know the Dark Side of the Moon module listed the population of Kraatar as

60% Human, 38% Vrusk, 1% Dralasite, 1% Yazirian

Just another contradiction in the source material.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 27, 2012 - 3:13pm
Still digesting but one thing I think is really needed is a clarifying of terms. We have four for planet populations O-Outpost, Lt-Light, Mod-Moderate and Hy-Heavy

One of the few populations I could find was with the Dramune system. Both Inner and Outer Reach have populations listed as Moderate. Outer Reach is at the low end at 20 million and Inner Reach is higher at 500 million. Personally I use a form of the Traveller system which goes from 0-A(10) or 0-tens of billions. I will post it with SF conversions when I find it.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2012 - 4:38pm
Its not hyper accurate but I think the AD system is easy enough to use. I think putting actual numbers to the light, mod & heavy just opens you up for dispute. However, i'd still be interested in the traveller conversion.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 27, 2012 - 4:38pm
Here's a take on the population spread based on social issues.

Dralasites are talkers not doers. Longest lived of the races they do not feel the pressure to reproduce that other races do. Being able to change sexes means that in times of need they can adapt their population to replace losses more easily than other races, again easing the desire to reproduce.

Yazirians reproduce fairly quickly but prefer to be in a clan setting. Since they prefer their own kind and are generally looking to reproduce their lost homeworld they do not mix colonies as the other races are prone to.

Vrusk are always seeking new markets and like Yazirians like to be with their own kind but instead of clan theirs is Trade Houses. So they tend to move in mass and as a group. Dedication to company limits their reproductive drive so numbers are not as high as they could be.

Humans breed like crazy for reasons they barely understand but mainly seem to think they need to fill the galaxy. Their desire for new space and challenges drives them on.

Humans and Vrusk have worked out an interesting situation. Humans want to move to new places but lack the founding and organization to do it if their planetary. Vrusk Trade House trying to build themselves up in the face of the megacorps have the funding to start new colonies but need others to get the new colony economy going. This has led to the Human/Vrusk colony mixes.

The megacorp planets have Human/Vrusk as main population for similar reasons as those stated in the racial brief.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2012 - 4:50pm
I like rattraveller's reasons for low vrusk population numbers. Perhaps reproduction is actually messy and it sort of offends vrusk sensibilities concerning art and beauty. Plus under the hive system only queens reproduced but since the fall of the hive everyone could. Perhaps there was a population boom that imperilled the vrusk's survival centuries ago or its just that the average vrusk doesnt feel the urge to reproduce as a legacy of the hive system. I dunno which but those could be possibilities.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 27, 2012 - 5:51pm
I like that. As the Vrusk gained intelligence and moved away from the hive structure as a society they still feel the need to be in a highly controlled and directed environment on a subconscious level. This is why they give themselves so totally to the Trade Houses.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 27, 2012 - 6:18pm
rattraveller wrote:
I like that. As the Vrusk gained intelligence and moved away from the hive structure as a society they still feel the need to be in a highly controlled and directed environment on a subconscious level. This is why they give themselves so totally to the Trade Houses.


EXACTLY! Although there are always a few odd balls out there that buck the mold.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

iggy's picture
iggy
December 28, 2012 - 8:36am
I can see the majority of vrusk having a low reproductive drive because they are descended from worker class vrusk.  However there could be those vrusk that are descended from royal class vrusk who have a high drive to reproduce.

Edit: I would also expect that very few offspring of royal class vrusk have the royal genetics that drive them to high reproduction.   Most end up with worker class genetics. 
-iggy

jedion357's picture
jedion357
December 28, 2012 - 12:18pm
iggy wrote:
I can see the majority of vrusk having a low reproductive drive because they are descended from worker class vrusk.  However there could be those vrusk that are descended from royal class vrusk who have a high drive to reproduce.

Edit: I would also expect that very few offspring of royal class vrusk have the royal genetics that drive them to high reproduction.   Most end up with worker class genetics. 
I like that. Could a worker class produce a royal class? Or is it simply that feeding the larva "royal jelly" causes it to mature into a royal? It sort of begs the issue of warrior class? Worker class? And royal? Would these be the 3 classes of the hive system?
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 28, 2012 - 5:32pm
Back to something we started. But I have to describe a difference between SF and Traveller before we can really get into it. SF gave us a great setting but almost all of it was subjective. Traveller on the other hand was very declarative.

To understand the difference is simple. When I had to write evaluation reports I had to use declarative statements. I could not use a subjective like He is a great guy, well liked by all his team members. Instead I used Sgt. Phineas is led his squad through the battalion evaluation and his squad was ranked number one in the battalion.

In SF we have outpost, light, moderate and heavy for population descriptions. In Traveller it was the 0-A scale (for ease Traveller converted all stat scores above 9 to letters A=10, B=11, C=12....)
Here is there scale:
0=No inhabitants
1=Tens of Inhabitants
2=Hundreds of Inhabitants
3=Thousands of Inhabitants
4=Tens of Thousands of Inhabitants
5=Hundreds of Thousands of Inhabitants
6=Millions of Inhabitants
7=Tens of Millions of Inhabitants
8=Hundreds of Millions of Inhabitants
9=Billions of Inhabitants
A=Tens of Billions of Inhabitants

I placed the SF translation as:
Outpost=0-2
Light=3-5
Moderate=6-8
Heavy=9-A

One last note. This is total population and not population density. Three worlds all Earth sized could have a pop stat of 9. It was up to the referee to determine if this was modern day Earth, Judge Dredd's Megacity Earth or Earth-like with only a 50% surface water and less deserts giving twice as much habitable surface.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

JCab747's picture
JCab747
August 26, 2016 - 9:53am
rattraveller wrote:
Back to something we started. But I have to describe a difference between SF and Traveller before we can really get into it. SF gave us a great setting but almost all of it was subjective. Traveller on the other hand was very declarative.

To understand the difference is simple. When I had to write evaluation reports I had to use declarative statements. I could not use a subjective like He is a great guy, well liked by all his team members. Instead I used Sgt. Phineas is led his squad through the battalion evaluation and his squad was ranked number one in the battalion.

In SF we have outpost, light, moderate and heavy for population descriptions. In Traveller it was the 0-A scale (for ease Traveller converted all stat scores above 9 to letters A=10, B=11, C=12....)
Here is there scale:
0=No inhabitants
1=Tens of Inhabitants
2=Hundreds of Inhabitants
3=Thousands of Inhabitants
4=Tens of Thousands of Inhabitants
5=Hundreds of Thousands of Inhabitants
6=Millions of Inhabitants
7=Tens of Millions of Inhabitants
8=Hundreds of Millions of Inhabitants
9=Billions of Inhabitants
A=Tens of Billions of Inhabitants

I placed the SF translation as:
Outpost=0-2
Light=3-5
Moderate=6-8
Heavy=9-A

One last note. This is total population and not population density. Three worlds all Earth sized could have a pop stat of 9. It was up to the referee to determine if this was modern day Earth, Judge Dredd's Megacity Earth or Earth-like with only a 50% surface water and less deserts giving twice as much habitable surface.


Ah, so here's another population code idea! And a lot earlier than my more recent post: A New Look at Population Codes. I tried to search for items like this but I don't think it came up when I did it. I probably used the wrong key words.
Joe Cabadas

JCab747's picture
JCab747
August 26, 2016 - 9:56am
P.S. I hate the Zeb's timeline too... as mentioned in other posts. There are things to salvage from it, some dates can be left alone simply because there's nothing better, and others need a good reworking such as in the non-Zebs canon timeline that others worked on recently.
Joe Cabadas