 April 2, 2008 - 10:06am | At long last! A major fleet action! Sathar Fleet Devastator is going to attack one of the systems in Drammune. The fate of the Frontier may be decided on Day 13 of the war! Sathar: Attacker UPF/Militia: Defender |
 April 2, 2008 - 11:20am | Okay, looks like the battle will be around Outer Reach. Who all wants to take part in this one? This could easily be split among many players. If you want a piece of the action chime in. I'll be playing on the Sathar side and Imperial Lord will be playing on the UPF side. Any others? As I'm committed to playing the Sathar now, could someone who knows please PM me with the selected Sathar retreat conditions? It may have some effect on my tactics. What is the format going to be: live (in chat) or PBP?. I know Imperial Lord much prefers the chat method. Maybe the answer depends on the number of players we end up with. The larger the number the more likely we'll have to try some form of PBP as the abillity to coordinate a mutually convenient time to meet in the game room seems to drop as the square (if not the cube) of the number of people involved. This is going to be a long battle. The little one Imperial Lord and I did in Kaken-kar, that invovled 3 ships + station on his side and 3 captial ships + 5 fighters on my side, only lasted 3 rounds (plus 3 quick ones to resolve the fire on the frigate) and took about 3 hours over two session to resolve. This battle has a lot more ships in it and is going to take proportionally longer. Next do we want to run the game on the square grid or on a true hex grid. I could prepare a hex grid image with cell location numbers on it that people can use. There are several ways to play this with the hex grid that I can elaborate on in detail if people are interested. I don't think it would be much slower than trying to do the square grid. For me I think it would be faster. All that would be needed is a paint program that you can use to draw lines on the map (Photo shop, Windows Paint program, the GIMP(which is free), etc). Finally are there any rule clarifications we want to make before we get started? I have one I'll throw out regarding MR. The way I read the KH rules, you have to move forward one space before you can make a turn. In the Kaken-kar battle we were allowing ships to make a facing change in their inital square as well. Which way to you think it should be? I don't really care which way we do it, just so long as we are all agreed on the same method. Sometimes I maneuver my ships knowing that I have to move one space before I can turn again. If that isn't how we are playing, it may have a small effect on how I play so I want to be clear about what we are doing. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 2, 2008 - 11:52am | I agree with the hex grid thing. For this major battle, let's get as authentic as possible. Larry knows the retreat conditions, so maybe you want to contact him. |
April 2, 2008 - 12:28pm | So are you saying you have to move one space before turning or you can turn in the one you start in. I've always played the former, but we were doing the latter in the Kaken-Kar battle. Your wording is a little ambiguous still. Or maybe I'm just a little dense. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 2, 2008 - 1:05pm | Oh, I thought you wanted to turn in the hex you start in... Either way, I am cool... |
April 2, 2008 - 2:00pm | We also need to discuss some of the details of defensive fire. |
April 2, 2008 - 3:01pm | Well, start discussing. What did you have in mind. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
 April 2, 2008 - 3:17pm | Any movement can be used first. I don't see any rules on this to restict it. |
April 2, 2008 - 10:28pm | Well, the main question is this: The rules do not state a realistic condition. After all, why should the "defender" have to wait unti the attacker finishes his whole move before he can fire? I say that the moving player ("attacker") should have to map out his move, and then be fired upon at any time that the "defender" (non-moving player) sees fit. HOWEVER... If the defender declines to fire (because of long range, for example), the attacker should have the option of firing some or all of his weapons at that time. Or, the attacker can continue to move into the next hex. If this hex is again within range of the defender, then, once again, the defender has the option to fire some or all of his weapons. If he again declines, then the attacker may fire. The process continues, hex by hex, until all of the relevant weapons are fired, with the defender always having the option of firing first. I understand that this will somewhat slow down the game, etc. But I want to make sure that it is clear. This is a very key part of the game - really the most important, and the rules are rather unclear on it. I think this process is the most fair and realistic possible. |
April 3, 2008 - 11:17am | I agree completely. Actually, what you had in mind is basically already in the rules. From the UPF Tactical Operations Manual (UPFTOM) page 5: Defensive Attacks The non-moving player can shoot at his opponent's ships at the start of his opponent's combat phase. Moving ships can be shot at in any hex they moved through during their move. No shots are resolved until after all ships have finished moving. At that time, the non-moving player can shoot at any of his opponent's ships as if they were in any hex they moved through during the turn. ... So the defensive fire can always be done at any point along the move. In fact I argued for this in the games we are were playing with Shadow Shack as well because he wasn't originally planning on doing it. I have also always extended this (athough I don't think it is explictly stated in the rules) so that the attacking player can fire at any point along their route as well. This is actually one of the reasons I'd like to use the hex images to do the battles. It would work like this:
Related to this I'd like to make sure we follow this rule as well. From the UPFTOM, page 4: Aiming Weapons A player must announce which weapons he is using and which targets he will use them against before the dice are rolled to resolve any attacks. If a target is destroyed by the first few shots, any other weapons the player had aimed at that target must be fired, even though there is nothing for them to hit. The attacker cannot shift these weapons to a new target once they are aimed. If these wasted shots include torpedo or rocket fire, these weapons are fired and must be crossed off the attaking ship'd record sheet. It makes a difference if you can just keep shooting more weapons until you destroy a target and then shift to a new one instead of having to state up front where all the shots are going. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 3, 2008 - 8:26pm | The main issue I have with that sequence (and maybe I am just reading it wrong) is that the ATTACKER should have a chance to fire if the defender declines fire and the attacker is in range. In terms of calling the shots on everything - I'm cool with that. |
April 3, 2008 - 8:39pm | I think you are just reading it wrong. The attacker make all of their moves with the paths recorded on the image. The defender then takes all of their defensive fire and the damage is applied. And they can shoot at the attacker anywhere along the path. Then the attacker gets to fire. The attacker never gets to fire until all defensive fire is resolved. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 4, 2008 - 7:05am | I don't think that is realistic. If the defender declines to fire at let's say, 5 hexes away, why shouldn't the attacker then have the option to fire at that range? Why should the attacker have to wait to fire when he is otherwise within range? That makes no sense. |
April 4, 2008 - 9:02am | Let me see if I understand what you are suggesting. It seems like you are proposing changing the basic combat system. The standard rules are: attacker moves, defender fires and applies damage, and finally attacker fires. What you want to do is this:
Another thing to think about is that technically you have to divide the turn into sub turns and step though that way moving each ship by the fraction of it's speed. If I have a fighter moving at speed 20 and a HC moving at speed 5, in the same time interval used to call shots the fighter should move 4 times farther than the HC. I can give examples of why this would be important if you want. Another option we could consider, one we use in the online games that Shadow Shack is running, is that defensive fire isn't immediately applied. In other words, the attacker moves, BOTH sides fire and then damage is applies. That is also a major change to the combat system that has an impact on the tactics. For one thing, it makes fighters much more deadly. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 4, 2008 - 9:45am | I see your point about the fighter and the Heavy Crusier. However, I think that it would be something we could handle on a case-by-case basis and it would come up rarely. Especially with the called shot rule of which you just reminded us. After all, the ships start the battle at the same speed... I think your 4-step layout is the way to go. Why not try it? Remember - it may not even come up. The defender may indeed fire before the attacker is even within range. But I still think we need to allow the attacker to fire if he wants to from a longer range. Let's playtest it... If it overwhelmingly tedious, then we can always go back to the previous system. Remember also, the defender is likely to allow the ships to come into a certain range before being fired on. For example, the attacker could say "This is my movement path," and the only parts that have to be covered are those hexes within range of the other's guns. Additionally, I would imagine that the defender is going to let the attacker move freely at hexes 12 through 7, due to the RD penalties - so that should be quick. Once things get closer, then it will be hex-by-hex, but I think that will not be a big deal. I don't like the system as it stands right now. It is very unrealistic to force the attacker to wait until he gets pounded - if he wanted to fire earlier in his path. I also don't like simultaneous fire. Like you said, it makes fighters (and Assault Scouts) much more effective - being able to pop off Assault Rockets before getting blown up. |
April 4, 2008 - 9:56am | So the plan is:
Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 4, 2008 - 11:38am | Good man, Terlo! Step through the movement one 1 hex per ship at a time once the enemy ship(s) are in range of a defender's guns. Movement outside of defender gun range is resolved immediately. Also - should the attacker have to declare all movement? Shouldn't it just be hex-by-hex in the defender's "red zone" (weapon range) and then the moving player stops moving when he stops moving? |
April 4, 2008 - 11:57am | Realisticly, yes, you should only have to declare movement until you are in a defender's red zone (defined by the range of his longest ranged weapon) and then move hex by hex until clear. I just suggested the idea to simplify play logistics of posting moves, you only have to do it once instead of several times. I have no problem doing it your way. It it becomes to cumbersome, we can always simplify. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 4, 2008 - 12:20pm | Cool. All agreed then. Excellent Any progess on the hex map front? Also, I find it hard to see the markings on the ship counters - any suggestions on how to best do that? |
April 4, 2008 - 1:14pm | The only way to make the markings better is to increase the DPI of the images. They are acutally quite a bit higher resolution that I'm using them. That just makes for a much larger image size = longer to upload and download. I have the hex map. I just need to put numbers on it and that could take a while. I'll try to get it done over the weekend. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 4, 2008 - 1:43pm | Maybe we could just superimpose large text letters over the counters. I noticed that you did that with one of my Assault Scouts in the last battle for some reason. It will look a little ugly, but it should be handy for sorting through the different ships. Oh yes, and one more thing - name your ships! |
April 8, 2008 - 10:51pm | I've posted a hex map with numbers and what I believe Imperial Lord intended for the starting positions of the UPF ships in the download section. Please check and verify. If correct, we'll place the Sathar. I only placed one marker for the UPF ships since they are all in the same hex to begin. As they move out we'll place additional markers on the map. While working on the hex grid, my wife asked me what I was doing. I told her I was making the hex map for Star Frontiers and her comment was that I was secretly a bee at heart  . Anyway, enjoy.Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 9, 2008 - 6:43am | Great job - too bad we did not have a chance to play last night... What is your schedule like tonight? |
April 9, 2008 - 8:43am | I have to teach class from 6-9pm MDT tonight so I'm pretty tied up. Tomorrow would work better for me. Plus it will give ThunderGod and me a chance to decide on our ship placement. Any rules on our starting speed? Does it have to be all the same or can different ships have different speeds? Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 9, 2008 - 9:50am | The speed can be any, but it must be the same for the whole fleet. |
 April 10, 2008 - 11:45am | Plus it will give ThunderGod and me a chance to decide on our ship placement. Place the ships on the map.  -- INCOMING .02 -- You will want a speed to "catch-up" to the baddies if you think they will flee. Commander SSSsssssssssupense. |
April 10, 2008 - 11:49am | Got the map, but cannot play tonight. So at least you can talk to Larry and Thunder about your setup and speed. Try to get it done tonight and then we can play tomorrow - maybe. |
April 10, 2008 - 11:57am | Okay, we'll have to shoot for tomorrow then. Thunder and I have been discussing setup. Are you going to play as well Larry? if so we can disucss setup tonight Thunder will be on about 9:45-10:00 EDT. And I'll join up as well and we can chat. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 11, 2008 - 10:34am | ThunderGod can't play tonight but I can and we can try out a round or two to work the bugs out of the mechanics. I've updated the Battle of Dramune map with our starting positions. All ships are initally headed west at speed 5. Here is how they break down: Under the HC A counter in the bottom right corner (hex 5539) we have the following (nominally under Thunder God's control): 2 HC (Star Scourge and Tyrant) 2 LC (Callous and Heartless) 4 DD (Destiny, Ruthless, Fearless and Barbaric) 2 FF (Death Dealer and Raptor) 3 fighters Under the HC C counter in hex (5436) we have the following (nominally under Terl Obar's control: 2 HC (Dominator and Brutality) 2 LC (Sanguinary and Murderous) 3 DD (Severe, Nefarious and Venomous) 2 FF (Fury and Savage) 1 AC (Space Demon) 3 fighters Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
April 11, 2008 - 12:15pm | Ok, great! Here we go! What time would be good for you, EST? Do you like the ship names? Also, where can I find electronic/data ship counters like you have? I would like to be able to accurately track the fleets on the hex map you made. I downloaded some once, but for some reason they came in really big on my screen. |
April 11, 2008 - 12:52pm | I think you meant EDT , but in any case it would have to be at least after 8:30 so I can get the kids fed and settled down to a movie or something. My wife is at the planetarium supervising the Astronomy Club tonight (last time for a few months) so I'm on my own taking care of the kids. For the counters, I just use the ones from starfrontiers.com (The official source of all original SF material). Go there, click on the 'counters' link on the left and you have two choices. The first, which I'm using for this map, is the "Complete set of Counters" link under Knight Hawks. Although I admit the color of the militia ships in that scan isn't the best. So for those I just rescanned them myself. (My original KH boxed set I bought way back when had a second counter sheet in it so I still have the militia ships not punched out that I could rescan as a group.) The second option is the "KH+AD Counters" link under the Excel Files (those are the ones I'm using on the FDM). What I do is copy the counter I need and scale it to the map (reduction by a factor of 3) before placing it. I use the GIMP as my graphics tool. I could give complete details for that piece of software. Anything else though you are on your own. Ad Astra Per Ardua! My blog - Expanding Frontier Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine |
