Vrusk Biker Gang

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 19, 2017 - 6:18am
So as we all know the equipment lists were writen by Yazirians for Yazirians with out much consideration for the other Core 4 races (except their heroes the Humans). While working on a little project and wanting to include ground cycles I found that a ground cycle could have two passengers. Since your average ground cycle is 1.7 meters long and your average Vrusk is 1.5 meters long, how do you fit two of them on a ground cycle? Also how does a Vrusk biker even fit his little Dralasite buddy on one with him?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?
Comments:

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 19, 2017 - 11:12am
Out of curiosity where did you get a 1.7m average length from? I only ask as that's just a tad longer than the average wheelbase of modern bikes (and by tad I mean only by a few centimeters), average overall lengths are even longer (well over 2m)...even the smallest production bikes today are longer than 1.7m (66"). For example, my 250 Rebel (considered by many as a 3/4 sized motorcycle) is 76½" or 1.95m in overall length.

For the simple answer to vrusk cycles I would refer to the KH rule for Space Suits: add a little extra for a Vrusk package to the cycle. This entails a set of eight footpegs and a flip-pillion/passenger seat that the abdomen can go under. Naturally a set of eight rear pegs is also in order, or more cost-effectively a "uni-racial" wide single peg on each side that humans/drals/yazirians can utilize normally or all four vruskan feet can grip per peg --- although much like modern cycles the passenger seat and pegs would tend to be more confined than the driver's set.


For reference, a few real-world cycles illustrating the general "afterthought" nature of passenger seats --- starting with the aforementioned 250 Rebel:


Typical sport bike set-up:

This particular bike doesn't even come with a passenger seat --- it has to be ordered separately as an in-house accessory (an old trend, base models with a single seat):
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 19, 2017 - 8:09pm
1) Got the average like everything else from looking up online resources. 1.7 meters was the most common average wheel base. Please remember that while in America and Europe motorcycles are not a "common" form of transportation being more for enthusiasts. In third world countries in Asia, Africa and South America they are used much more for a wide variety of reasons and also tend to be more practical and thus smaller.

2) I appreciate the effort and explanation but you dodged the question. I did not ask how a Vrusk rides a ground cycle but how TWO Vrusk ride a ground cycle.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 20, 2017 - 1:08am
rattraveller wrote:
1) Got the average like everything else from looking up online resources. 1.7 meters was the most common average wheel base.

Ah, wheelbase. That's different from length, hence the question...when you stated the average length was 1.7 and the average vrusk was 1.5 I thought you were referring to overall length. 1.7m is certainly in line for wheelbase then (as I opened with said question).

Quote:
2) I appreciate the effort and explanation but you dodged the question. I did not ask how a Vrusk rides a ground cycle but how TWO Vrusk ride a ground cycle.

I didn't dodge anything, allow me to quote myself and highlight the key parts:

Shadow Shack wrote:
For the simple answer to vrusk cycles I would refer to the KH rule for Space Suits: add a little extra for a Vrusk package to the cycle. This entails a set of eight footpegs and a flip-pillion/passenger seat that the abdomen can go under. Naturally a set of eight rear pegs is also in order, or more cost-effectively a "uni-racial" wide single peg on each side that humans/drals/yazirians can utilize normally or all four vruskan feet can grip per peg --- although much like modern cycles the passenger seat and pegs would tend to be more confined than the driver's set.

In other words, the vrusk driver is poised as illustrated in my drawing (abdomen tucked under the pivoting/flip-up passenger seat as I illustrated in my drawing) while the vrusk passenger would be perched atop said pivoting/flip-up seat with his feet grasping the four pegs per side --- or with four feet on each of the "uni-racial" wider single pegs, depending upon which rear peg design you prefer to include in said vruskan package. The passenger would have his/her abdomen dangling off the tail but his thorax would be firmly planted on the passenger seat.

My personal design preference would be four pegs per side for the operator because a wider single peg would drag too easily when banked in a turn. Meanwhile the rear pegs would be the single/wider "uni-racial" variety, since they are mounted higher they won't drag when banked.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
December 21, 2017 - 4:20pm
So what would the wheel base of this transformer expando bike be to hold two Vrusk? 

Would it even be driveable as a standard bike or would Vrusk need extra Dex/RS or skill to use?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
December 22, 2017 - 10:05am
rattraveller wrote:
So what would the wheel base of this transformer expando bike be to hold two Vrusk? 
 

It would definitely be a bit longer than the "standard" model. Even the illustration I provided would have a human/yaz/dral stretched out via the additional seat/frame length. I'd say no more than an extra half meter though. The passenger doesn't require extra length, even a vrusk can perch on the drawing I supplied. As I noted earlier, passenger accommodations on motorcycles tend to be more afterthought than comfort driven...the only time this is really waived is with the big touring bikes and then things reverse: the passenger seat is usually more cozy than the driver seat. 

Quote:
Would it even be driveable as a standard bike or would Vrusk need extra Dex/RS or skill to use?

Sure it would be operable, although handling would take a small hit.  

See, what happens when you extend the wheelbase of a two-wheeler, it requires a greater lean angle at a given speed over the shorter wheelbase counterpart. In other words, take a stock bike and extend the swingarm (like the dragster bikes do to prevent wheelies) and/or the fork angle & fork length (re: Captain America chopper from Easyriders) and now that bike needs to lean over more than it did when it was stock. Meaning you have to slow down more for turns than you would with a stock bike. So the "turn speed" stat would be lower on such machines. Granted the "short corner" rule can be used to overcome this, with said rule simply signing on a little sooner. 

Now then, this issue can be overcome by design as well. Additional ground clearance allows for greater lean angle, by raising the suspension you can now lean more before scraping parts on the ground. While this can be easy to adjust on a hovercycle (simply raise the hoverfan speed so it lifts a tad higher, although this could technically chew into the top speed), it requires modification/replacement of suspension bits on a ground cycle.

There's a whole slew of other tidbits that affect motorcycle handling, chief among them rake & trail dimensions...but for game purposes those two (wheelbase & ground clearance) are the easiest to apply to the situation.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

KRingway's picture
KRingway
December 29, 2017 - 5:23am
I've tended to assume that 'motorcycles' in SF are more like scooters in terms of design. By this I mean that there is a floor pan or something similar, so that Vrusks and others don't run into problems and there is a generic 'one design fits all' approach. Otherwise if they're more like human motorbikes you run into a certain amount of limitations. Maybe the pan is designed in such a way that Vrusk legs are tucked in a certain manner that all Vrusk bikers use as a sitting position. Possibly the floor pan extends around towards the rear of the vehicle in a similar way to running boards. That said, a Vrusk as a passenger is probably not possible, even if the cyclist isn't a Vrusk themselves.

I say this as over the years of running and playing SF, figuring out how Vrusk fit into various vehicles as either a passenger or driver has always been a bit of a conundrum Wink

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 6, 2018 - 2:48am
Something ironic about the SF renderings of cycle chits:


While the text states they are electric vehicles, I can't help but notice that the protrusions located under the seat/tank area look just like BMW boxer heads (an engine that is almost as old by design as Harley's V-Twin):




Now fast-forward 30 years after SF was introduced to marvel at the debut of the first working "hover cycle" and...it's based on none other than a BMW boxer engine:

No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 6, 2018 - 5:44am
Interesting. Alot of sci-fi became pretty good at predicting the future of tech.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

KRingway's picture
KRingway
January 6, 2018 - 6:47am
I've always seen the bits in those counter illustrations as foot pads/rests, rather than cylinder heads.

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 6, 2018 - 10:12am
KRingway wrote:
I've always seen the bits in those counter illustrations as foot pads/rests, rather than cylinder heads.

I thought the same before I got into motorcycles. The simple fact is a motorcycle floorboard isn't much larger than the boot intended to rest upon it, unless you get into the extensive custom versions that are longer and ridiculously expensive. Fairing on both bikes suggests a more aggressive sport bike stance where the pegs would be located more to the rear to induce a forward lean for better aerodynamics. Being electric vehicles they obviously aren't cylinder heads either. On the other hand going by what a BMW engine looks like the proportions are both proportionally and geographically correct as depicted. Either way chalk it up to artist/writer differences.

Still, assuming they actually are lengthy floorboards then it isn't a vrusk solution since they would have to fold all of their legs forward of their abdomen/thorax area and again, far too large for human/yaz/dral feet/pseudopods. A vruskan floorboard would have to be further aft than depicted in the chits...which isn't out of line for the aforementioned "vrusk package" that was mentioned.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

KRingway's picture
KRingway
January 7, 2018 - 1:25am
Then again, Vrusk aren't very large. Lying flat they're pretty long, but in a sitting stance they're not too long. This is why they could use a bike but probably not have space for a passenger or be a passenger themselves. Universal running board-like things would be fine for their feet and those of the other races. I was doodling the other day and sketched out an idea, which reminded me of how we approached this back in the day. A vrusk wouldn't have to do any fancy leg folding etc for it to work. It's also not much similar to the bike depicted on the chits.

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 7, 2018 - 4:55am
KRingway wrote:
Then again, Vrusk aren't very large. Lying flat they're pretty long, but in a sitting stance they're not too long.

As we covered when this started Vrusk are 1.5m long. The wheel base of an average bike is 1.7m. Vrusk cannot roll up their torso so it needs to lay flat. Also Vrusk breathe through their lower torso so not only do you have to fit their entire torso on the ground cycle and fit their legs on the ground cycle, you have to make sure they can breathe while doing riding.

My point in starting this was that we have four very different Core Four races. So items of equipment have to be extensively modified to be used by all four races or as with the ground cycle a Vrusk cannot possibly ride one with another Vrusk and the other three races would have to ride on the Vrusk's back or maybe handlebars. 
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 7, 2018 - 4:16pm
Like I posted & provided an illustration for earlier, the passenger seat of a vrusk bike is elevated and hinged...it's not solid. The vrusk can slip the abdomen into this space and the passenger flips the seat back down to perch over the abomen. 

Optionally, this flip-up seat can be made longer to accomodate another vrusk...while such a weight shift makes a bike more prone to wheelies --- believe me when I say it's much easier to wheelie with a passenger than without --- it is perfectly okay to have bits hanging over past the rear tire.

Image result for cb750 trunk
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 7, 2018 - 8:12pm
As Roy Neary told Julian Guiler "You should try sculpting instead of drawing"
ground cycle

As you can see by the demonstration of a friendly PGC troubleshooting team the flip out seat would not cause the passenger to travel by wheelie but would drag the passenger by the butt. We had to use a cargo box to get the picture. BTW did you really suggest Vrusk would have to travel by unicycle to have a passenger.

Anywho, Vrusk have an exoskeleton along their torso. It is basically a 1.5m long tube they cannot bend to fit on the seat of a ground cycle. Although not stated this torso looks to be much longer than a Human butt. The underside is also where they breathe. Have you ever ridden your motorcycle with you mouth that close to the ground? Some extra protection would be needed there.

Also if you check most drawings their legs extend out from their sides. They do not go straight down like Human, Yazirian or Dralasite. This means their legs are extending out to the sides of the ground cycle and not tucked into the sides of the ground cycle. 

To get their legs onto the floorplates of a ground cycle and have the extensions necessary for carrying passengers and the additional protections from the lower breathing organs means just like their laspistols, Vrusk will need specially made ground cycles to use with many modifications that will make them unusable to the other races.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 8, 2018 - 12:26am
rattraveller wrote:
As you can see by the demonstration of a friendly PGC troubleshooting team the flip out seat would not cause the passenger to travel by wheelie but would drag the passenger by the butt.

Three problems with your Lego-demo:

1> Your vrusk is riding a human-centric cycle --- just like the one your humans are riding, meaning one that lacks a vruskan operator package.
2> Your vrusk and cycle are not to scale with each other going by your previous 1.5m vrusk length to 1.7m wheelbase ratio.
3> It's not a flip-out seat, it's a flip-up seat. Meaning one that flops back down over the abdomen...as opposed to your rendition where it's jutting out from underneath and behind the abdomen. Source the drawing in my opening post.

Quote:
BTW did you really suggest Vrusk would have to travel by unicycle to have a passenger.

No, I merely stated that placing weight aft of the driver seat can make it more prone to wheelies. As I also stated, adding a human passenger has the same effect. Despite that, there has been a long standing practice of having motorcycle parts extending past the driver seat as well as beyond the rear wheel, as I depicted with that 1970's CB750 sporting a trunk mounted behind the passenger seat and hanging out well past the rear tire.

It's a simple matter of throttle control that prevents the wheelie when such weight is added. Adjustable suspension also comes into play, and adjustable rear shocks have been around since the 1970's (if not earlier) to address the additional passenger/cargo weight issues.

Quote:
Anywho, Vrusk have an exoskeleton along their torso. It is basically a 1.5m long tube they cannot bend to fit on the seat of a ground cycle.

All insects can bend and flex, check out a praying mantis (which is about the closest thing related to a vrusk that I can think of): their thorax/abdomen can go from perfectly straight to a semi-centaur position. The big difference here is a vrusk can go full 90º centaur stance and their legs are all in the abdomen. 

I don't know if this 90º torso/abdomen stance is mentioned anywhere as a permanent/fixed stance, I always presumed that vrusk were flexible there as I demonstrated with the slightly leaned forward stance...like the mantis I figure they can flatten out for things like sleeping or swimming (the latter would be a backstroke since they breathe through the bottom of the abdomen).

Quote:
Although not stated this torso looks to be much longer than a Human butt.

Again: vruskan operator package. A longer seat is part of that along with the additonal foot space.

Quote:
The underside is also where they breathe. Have you ever ridden your motorcycle with you mouth that close to the ground? Some extra protection would be needed there.

The answer here is quite simple: source dralasite clothing...since the drals breathe through their skin a vrusk seat could be made of a similar material that permits respiration.

Quote:
Also if you check most drawings their legs extend out from their sides. They do not go straight down like Human, Yazirian or Dralasite. This means their legs are extending out to the sides of the ground cycle and not tucked into the sides of the ground cycle.

Which is exactly how I depicted it in my opening post. Did that image not come through? I ask as you keep inquiring about things I depcted in that image and this is the fourth or fifth time I've referred back to it. Let me know and I'll host it elsewhere and re-post it.

Quote:
To get their legs onto the floorplates of a ground cycle and have the extensions necessary for carrying passengers and the additional protections from the lower breathing organs means just like their laspistols, Vrusk will need specially made ground cycles to use with many modifications that will make them unusable to the other races.

Agreed, as I said several times before: vruskan operator package.
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 8, 2018 - 6:02am
Great, so you agree that a Vrusk ground cycle has to be specifically made for Vrusk and cannot be used by the other three Core Races. The extensive modifications and custom items make it more expensive and something Humans, Yazirians and Dralasites would not pay to have.

Now we can move on to the next question. How do Yazirians keep from flying off ground cycles when the draft fills their skin flaps?
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

KRingway's picture
KRingway
January 8, 2018 - 12:03pm
Nah, I still think that there is a universal design that fits all. If one works from the idea that Vrusk are pretty rigid as a structure then, yeah, bikes would have to be made just for them. But I don't think this would be the case.

The mistake might be to try and make them fit human bikes from Earth - however, one imagines that something a bit more useful in a general sense (and not just useful to humans) would not be beyoned the technological reach of the SF universe Wink So, some sort of universal two-wheeled transport that perhaps doesn't particularly look like (a) the chit art and (b) motorcycle designs from Earth. If one tries to shoehorn a design from our world onto the way things are in SF, our designs don't pass muster Wink

Alternatively, these sorts of things weren't thought through when vehicles were mixed into the game when it was being created Wink

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 8, 2018 - 5:46pm
I do agree that SF like Star Wars was made for kids and that no serious thought was put into how things should actually work. You are just supposed to accept them. Take Jabba the Hutt. What exactly in HIS palace besides his couch was designed for his use? Since he was never supposed to leave the couch except to go to the flying yacht which looks like he could never fly it himself.

I have always gone with these forums being a place to flesh out and work out how the SF universe should work. It can be accepted that due to anatomical differences the Core Four races they cannot use alot of the same equipment: gas masks, vacuum suits, gloves, chairs and many other items. Robots are listed as looking like their creators race not four limbs and a head generics so why are other items not this way?

For example we frequently see pictures of three legged Dralasites. Any idea how that Dralasite would sit in a regular chair or ride on a normal ground cycle? Sure they could absorb the leg and sit but that takes five minutes. Seems an awful long time to wait to just sit down.

Thus I formally say Vrusk, much like they are not comfortable using Human laser pistols because of the difference in Hand structure cannont use a "standard" ground cycle and must have a standard Vrusk ground cycle.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 8, 2018 - 10:07pm
rattraveller wrote:
Great, so you agree that a Vrusk ground cycle has to be specifically made for Vrusk and cannot be used by the other three Core Races. The extensive modifications and custom items make it more expensive and something Humans, Yazirians and Dralasites would not pay to have.

Yep, as I stated in my first post in this thread.

You keep doing this just to needle me, ain't ya... Wink

Quote:
Now we can move on to the next question. How do Yazirians keep from flying off ground cycles when the draft fills their skin flaps?

They use the one thing no self-respecting biker would be caught without: bungee cords, good for 101 uses (make that 102 now). Foot in mouth

Okay, maybe not bungee cords...but some form of restraining item in that general vein. Optionally add a tow rope that hooks behind the passenger seat and a quick-release feature of the dan restraints for para-gliding.
 Cool


No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 9, 2018 - 6:56am
My thinking on this was that since Yazirians like to wear capes, those that regularly ride ground or hover cycles would have capes that they could cinch around them to stop them from flying off the cycles.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 9, 2018 - 11:54am
It was traditional for yazirian hunters to wear a sash when running through ungrowth to cinch in the pataguim. The yazirian word for sash escapes me right now, perhaps Iggy can remind me. It has persisted as a fashion item even into the Frontier and typically yazirian bikers in a gang will wear a sash that denotes the gang colors. This is actually an old practice as during the early period of the clan wars the typical uniform was the clan colors shown by wearing an appropriately colored sash.

Typically the sash is not used to secure any equipment as yazirians are wont to jump out of or off of things and glide away and the practice is to loose the sash with one hand even as the yazirian is vaulting off/over/out of something.

Because it would be a great shame to lose one's clan colors the ancient yazirians developed a tabard/poncho like vest that went over the head and strapped tightly to the body through the various "holes" in the pataguim. This poncho vest had a long tube like belt loop in the back through which the sash was passed that even if a yaz loosed his sash to glide the sash remained attacked to his person.

Idoms in Angladoc:
to loose the sash: means to get ready to fly and or for action.
To loose your sash or to throw your sash away: means to give/throw away one's honor, or to do something shameful.

101 uses for a sash
1. to cinch in the pataguim
2. to secure a weapon not a standard practice but not unknown either and usually a khadan honor sword
3. to sling infants close to the breast (how else is a female to manage 4 or more pups with only 2 hands)
4. to carry foraged food back to the tree
5. as a bandage (coming home without a sash colored with clan colors is a shame but coming home with one bloodied is respected)
6. as an emergency signal attached to the end of a pole and waved.
7. as a uniform or gang affiliation identifier
8. as a turban like head wrap to hood the eyes against bright sunlight
9. as a dust mask
10. as protection to the face and muzzle in extreme cold
11. to secure a burial shroud (for those clans that bury and not cremate)
and the list goes on....
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 12, 2018 - 7:16am
For a quick recap:
Vrusk have their own types and brands of ground cycles due to body type needs.
Humans ride the generic model cause most of the biking population are Human.
Yazirians have either bungee cords, sashes or special capes depending on their personal finances and style.

That leaves Dralasites. They can use ground cycles but in the standard shape it is difficult. Their limbs are just a little too short to reach the handle bars and kick start (quessing they use one) and foot rests. This can be solved by extending their limbs to fit the ground cycles. Dralasites who regularly use ground cycles usually stay in this body shape.

This has of course led to a standard look among Dralasite Bikers that is frequently played up in Star Play holovids of the tall, thin leather clad, bandana wearing Dralasite as the "blood hound" of the group using their superior sense of smell to track down the bad guy while riding their ground cycle.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 12, 2018 - 7:25pm
Drals can morph to fit the bike, however they can also have a unique operator package that brings the controls closer to their bodies (raised foot pegs and different handlebars that come back more). Granted this is something that can be easily done at the dealer during puchase...it's a simple matter for the tech bay to swap the bars and foot controls unlike the vruskan models that are built differently at the factory. 

Of course the altered controls still raises another issue for ground bikes --- planting a foot down while stopped. On a hover bike this is a non-issue but a two wheeler will fall over. So there's two options here:

!> "Landing Gear" --- essentially a set of "training wheels" that can be activated to drop down as the bike comes to a stop/retracted once moving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgvAE2HBmDQ

2> A recumbant style redesign of the cycle itself, thus placing the seat much closer to the ground. Naturally a dral bike would have the controls closer to the seat than depicted in this real world recumbant cycle:

As for kick start --- these are electric vehicles in SF, they have an on/off switch. When SF was introduced in 1981 only one motorcycle company was still utilizing the antiquated method of kick starting the engine (on street bikes anyways, the starter motor is simply deemed as "too heavy" for an MX bike so they still retain kick starters today), and even so they still had electric thumb start buttons to accompany that kick-pedal. With very few exceptions beyond the MX bikes, the kick start pedal disappeared across the board by 1985. Meanwhile, many a modern biker laments the passing of the kick pedal...most often when the battery dies and a kick pedal would be both easier and more useful than push starting the bike/dumping the clutch. ;)
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

KRingway's picture
KRingway
January 13, 2018 - 5:24am
The thing is, if Vrusk need stuff to be tailored specifically to their needs, then it tends to mess with all other vehicles and such stuff. Sure, they might have their own version of bikes, but likely as not there is a generic design that all races can use. Ditto for other vehicles.

rattraveller's picture
rattraveller
January 13, 2018 - 6:41am
@Shadow while I agree with everything you say, I do not think you will convince Star Play to stop using the Dralasite Biker Stereotype. Do not be surprised if Star Play's legal contacts you about infringing on their copyright.

@KR I see you are not quite getting the point of this discussion. Let's see if this helps. I am proposing that for realism sake the differences in physiology between Vrusk and the other Core Four races makes for them to have equipment made to accomadate those differences. Now if your campaign world wants generic equipment, that's fine but that is not what I am going for here. Take acceleration couches. Vrusk cannot lie down. How is their torso supported by an acceleration couch design for one of the other Core Four races?

Luckily we have real world examples of beings who have differences in physiology that require accomadation to use ground cycles. So if you think Humans paralyzed from the waist down, Humans who have lost their eyesight in an industrial accident, Humans born without arms are can ride generic ground cycles go with that. I am looking for the realistic equilivants. 
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

jedion357's picture
jedion357
January 13, 2018 - 7:30am
I've been following the discussion without interjection much, other than the background on yazirians, but then thats my job around here to be one of the experts on yazirians.

Anyhow, I like where this is going. Sure the baseline or cannon if you will is that all equipment is generic and one size fits all due to the choices of the game designers. However, the more realistic view of physiology of the core four is a great optional "rule" if you will. Something that really ought to be in the magazine. Rattraveller and or Shadowshack really ought to fully flesh this out.

Secondly much like the Racial Reaction Modifiers table in AD a simple table that rates a difficulty modifier for using equipment designed for another species physiology would be handy- Bob, the human mercenary is out of ammo but finds a vrusk shot gun table says humans using vrusk equipment are -10 to skill or ability checks with that equipment so his attempts to shoot his sathar opponent have a -10 equipment penalty.

A table like this would be a simple straight forward option for referees that want to use it.

Something similar exist in game: -20 to use alien equipment for the first time. My view is that this -20 applies to sathar equipment when encountered for the first time but sathar physiology is radically different from the core four so even after the alien penalty no longer applies there might still be a -10 or -5 penalty for vrusk, yazirians and human (dralasites are the ultimate conformist and get away with a lot so rarely would they suffer an equipment penalty).

naturally this table should at the very least a core five table and include sathar but could also include second string cannon species from the referee's screen adventure and Zebs. Making it a 10 x10 table.
Any SFman, FE or Dragon PC/NPC species should be easily adapted to use entry from one of the 10 cannon species.

EDIT: Having played with the making a 10x10 table I think it should be by generic physiology:
Generic humanoid: human, yazirian, ifshnit.
Generic Insectoid: vrusk, Zuraquor, clikk, heliope
generic therapod: humma, mechanon, and possibly saurian (although saurian artwork would suggest more humanoid in shape), heliope might go here
Unique type: Osakar-
Unique type conformist: sathar and dralasites- this types gets away with using anyone's equipment providing -20 penalty for alien equipment does not apply
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
January 13, 2018 - 10:44am
KRingway wrote:
The thing is, if Vrusk need stuff to be tailored specifically to their needs, then it tends to mess with all other vehicles and such stuff. Sure, they might have their own version of bikes, but likely as not there is a generic design that all races can use. Ditto for other vehicles.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, source the KH rules for Space Suits. Vrusk have to pay extra for theirs (granted on their home worlds I would house rule that drals/humans/yazirians have to pay extra for theirs). Either way, canon does allow for "alternate/species-specific packages".

rattraveller wrote:
while I agree with everything you say, I do not think you will convince Star Play to stop using the Dralasite Biker Stereotype. Do not be surprised if Star Play's legal contacts you about infringing on their copyright.

Which is another reason I simply have them morph to fit the bike. The first reason, of course, is simplicity in rules. ;)
No, I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide. Nor do I have any qualms in stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

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rattraveller
January 14, 2018 - 6:26am
Great another project.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?

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KRingway
January 19, 2018 - 1:10pm
rattraveller wrote:
@KR I see you are not quite getting the point of this discussion. Let's see if this helps. I am proposing that for realism sake the differences in physiology between Vrusk and the other Core Four races makes for them to have equipment made to accomadate those differences. Now if your campaign world wants generic equipment, that's fine but that is not what I am going for here. Take acceleration couches. Vrusk cannot lie down. How is their torso supported by an acceleration couch design for one of the other Core Four races?


I get the discussion. I just think that dividing things to the nth degree for some sort of supposed realism is rather pointless in a game which isn't all that realistic Wink I mean, there's nothing to say that an acceleration couch doesn't have moveable parts to it that can be adjusted to suit a Vrusk. In another mode, it works for humans, Yazirians, etc. You don't need a whole new couch. Similarly, a bike doesn't have to be redesigned very much at all to be useable for Vrusks as well as the other races. Lastly, spacesuits aren't a common or garden thing in the same way a bike is - so it's not really any big deal that they vary from humans, to Vrusks, etc. They're somewhat more specialised as a bit of kit Wink

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rattraveller
January 19, 2018 - 5:22pm
KRingway wrote:

Similarly, a bike doesn't have to be redesigned very much at all to be useable for Vrusks as well as the other races. Lastly, spacesuits aren't a common or garden thing in the same way a bike is - so it's not really any big deal that they vary from humans, to Vrusks, etc. They're somewhat more specialised as a bit of kit Wink

Yes a bike does need to be redisgned for a Vrusk. Their sitting area is 1.5 meters long. Other races barely cover 30 cm. Total length of the ground cycle along with seating and balance all need to be adjusted and definitely no passengers without a heavily modified side car.

As for vacc suits you made me laugh with that one. Look at all the published modules. How many have ground cycles as an equipment item vs. vacc suits? The very common item here is the vacc suit. This is a space adventure game after all. Not even sure one of the published modules includes ground cycles.

As I said, you don't want realism and think unrealistic generic items are OK then go with it. I am looking to flesh out realistic ground cycles with this thread. If you don't want to help with that then stop posting and saying then can be generic.
Sounds like a great job but where did you say we had to go?