Visually Tracking Starships

iggy's picture
iggy
October 26, 2014 - 11:51am
I think I know the scientific answer to this but want to explore the subject with everyone.   I'm thinking of an amateur astronomer watching starships thrusting out of a system or breaking on the way into a system.  Would the exhaust of the engines be visible to the astronomer with some nice telescopes?

 I'm thinking the guy knows when in the year the common trajectories of ships along the jump routes are within observational range of him for the planet or moon he is on as the ships go to and from the major planet in the system.  He is not on the major planet. 
-iggy
Comments:

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 26, 2014 - 12:14pm
My real science knowledge of this is pretty weak but my understanding of seeing "thrusting" from a distance is based on why you could not see a laser in a void... no atmosphere, I think visually you would see very little in real life, versus sci-fi fantasy.  On the other hand if the ships where moving through gasses it seems like they could leave a trail... but SF is sci-fi so the rules of our universe sometimes only just apply enough to make it seem real. Anyway that is my uneducated guess.
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 26, 2014 - 3:16pm
They might be able to observe light effects off of nearby objects. For instance, a ship accelerating toward you through an asteroid belt would give off a low band of light as it passes through the asteroids as its attitude thrusters fire. You could also detect their light reflecting off of relatively close planets and moons, but it would take a detection device to pick it up. The human eye would never notice it.

A ship igniting its reverse thrusting procedure on approach to you would be easily visible. A ship accelerating away from you would be easily visible. But a ship that is not accelerating or decelerating would not be visible, except by any identifier lights shining on its hull. Ships leaving would be duller than ships arriving due to time dilation and distance shortening/lengthening causing shorter and longer light wave frequences respectively.
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KRingway's picture
KRingway
October 26, 2014 - 4:27pm
AFAIK, ion engines would have some sort of visible exhaust when in use...

Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 26, 2014 - 11:06pm
Actually, most of the exhaust is from atmosphere, not from the fuel burning. There would not be enough of an exhaust trail in space to reflect anything, and besides, the exhaust would be transparent (pure gas) and pure black (carbon-based compounds, non-reflective), so it would not be detectable. At best it would enhance the aura of the light seen, not the ambient range of that light. (That is the ambient range would increase so little as to be difficult to detect the difference even with powerful equipment, if at all.) Besides, when traveling at the speeds they would be, the trail is made so thin as to be negligible.
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jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 27, 2014 - 2:22am
Tchklinxa wrote:
SF is sci-fi so the rules of our universe sometimes only just apply enough to make it seem real. Anyway that is my uneducated guess.


Can I quote you on that?
That one is worth repeating.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 27, 2014 - 4:36am
Sure you can quote me, lol :)

 I am the first one to admit my real space science knowledge is limited, but simple choices like everyone can or can not see lasers in the void of space can have a huge affect... both can be used to generate thrill in a plot line, but once a choice is established it must be maintained, even if latter you learn science says "no" as the players now know the reality you have created for them, it is the reality of the game. 

 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 9:28am
Well, here is something to ponder.

More imporatant in a setting with lots of small fighter style craft like Star Wars, BSG, or B5... but being able to see the firing solutions of ships might be imporant, like tracer rounds in heavy machine guns in real life.

So, maybe they would work on some kind of tracer laser light that is mixed in with other laser fire.

Also... Astrogation must need to take in to account hundreds or thousands of sources of gravity.  So... perhaps the telescopic tech in SF is FAR better then anything we have today.

The problem is the light years distance however.  So... if you see the ship on a space lane... its been gone from that point for years.   I don't see subspace tech working for some kind of detection attempt since the reflection would need to be carefully aimed back at the viewer.

So.... due to light sources... maybe... due to TIME... no.
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Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 27, 2014 - 9:55am
Actually, astrogation only needs to account for nearby sources of gravity of a significant size and gravity well, as far away and small sources (asteroids, distanced planetoids, large ships) are generally negligible.
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Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 12:02pm
Then it should not take the huge amount of time it does.  My assumption for the crazy amount of time it takes to plan a jump is because you have to plot many gravity wells along the route.  Granted... that is an assumption.

How else would you justify the large time requirement of plotting a jump?
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Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 27, 2014 - 12:23pm
Actually, traveling through space has more to do with trajectories. Course corrections just are not much of an option. Trajecting a bullet 10,000 miles and keeping it on course with a single blast and hitting a target 1 foot in diameter would take tramendous calculations. So part of it is about trajectories, not gravity wells. Also, the calculations of entering the void and coming out at the right point seem to be the greatest concern in Knight Hawks, due to their concerns with ending up in the wrong part of the galaxy. Because, remember, you are in the void for only a short time, but you end up flinging very far. So that is all about timing and you definitely want to nail the landing on that or you could overshoot by lightyears or simply miss your target entirely. So they will calculate very carefully and then double check and triple check and get verification. And remember, while you are in the void, you are outside of the universe, so gravity doesn't even come into the picture in the void. Chances are, the biggest calculations to get right involve the exact mass of the ship down to a fingernail as well as to have the nose pointed in the exact right direction as with the bullet illustration and programming into the computer the exact right time period to be in the void, not deviating by a single microsecond.
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Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 12:51pm
Then distance makes no difference, except for the time in void space being a second longer.  But in the game distance does matter for the calculations.

My assumptions where they while you are in void space grvity wells have some effect on you as you pass by them.  Your assumption is that while you are in void space it is entirely a different dimension totally detatched from the x,y, and z of real space.

In the concepts of space time being bendable and void space represents the distance between to points made closer by bending the real space reality.... I'm wondering if travelling through void space is really more like jumping from ripple to ripple in a real space planar wave created by all the gravity wells in between.  So in a sense each gravity well you pass by pulls you closer back into real space but your ship needs to resist that pull and basically jump from well to well... rather then being able to bend great real space distances together.  Just typing while thinking about it.  All this is still hinged on my assumption that gravity wells effect void space.

I suppose your saying that the greate the distance the greater the number of decimal points your calucations must go out to, but fundementally the nature of the calculations are the same.  In that method... you could establish that the time spent in void space could be calculated to a distance.  Like you could boil down a formula that says 1 second in void space equals 10000 AU... which might be useful on its own as it would enable a ship that is void jump capible to mke an emergency jump in any direction by say jumping for exactly one second.

I've been wondering if there could be able way to track or follow somebody making an emergency jump.  In trek... i think they can follow a warp signature or warp trail.  Star Wars they seem to be unable to follow you however as shown by the falcon's escapes from star destroyers.  How does Bobba Fett follow them?




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Ascent's picture
Ascent
October 27, 2014 - 3:11pm
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that distance would mean nothing based on what I said. Distance was the very reason I used the bullet illustration and why timing is so crucial.

Since void jumping is dependent upon how fast you go before being able to access the void, simply choosing to jump through the void at any time is not possible. You have to accelerate into the void and decelerate out of the void, which is why short void jumps are not possible. You need time to turn the ship or engines around to slow down. If you want a ship that can make short void jumps, you would have to double the number of engines on the ship and then some (to account for the extra mass). Thus void jumps cover long spaces, not small space. Thus, you also have to calculate exactly where you want to enter the void a distance so many AU's away from your starting point. In order to make those calculations, you have to start from a stopped position or else know exactly where you are going to be when you begin acceleration into the void. All of that is very difficult to calculate.

Yes, void jumping is no doubt very specific distances for very specific periods of time, but it is also not something that can be undertaken haphazardly. Any speculation about gravity wells is your own. It is not something indicated in KH and seems counter to the description in KH.
View my profile for a list of articles I have written, am writing, will write.
"It's yo' mama!" —Wicket W. Warrick, Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi
"That guy's wise." —Logray, Star Wars Ep.VI: Return of the Jedi
Do You Wanna Date My Avatar? - Felicia Day (The Guild)

Mother's picture
Mother
October 27, 2014 - 7:47pm
@ OP: in theory, yes. Realistically, it depends on the technology level. I would think a government or mega-corp might have the technology but probably not an amateur. 

There are two things required here: locating the object, by the light reflected off it; and tracking it. The reflection is a function of the size and distance from the observer. Tracking a moving object is more difficult than it sounds.  Automation would be needed and some way of keeping focusing on a manuevering target. 

 I have read that the CIA/DIA examines foreign satellites with high powered telescopes located in the cargo bays of specially modified aircraft like the C-135. They fly in the upper atmosphere and photograph them. 

Abub's picture
Abub
October 27, 2014 - 9:16pm
oh... yeah your right, in the OP's post he did mean in system not out along the space lanes which is what i was thinking.  I'm assuminng they have the telescopes on any void capaable ship to see well enough to do some serious math calculations and void jump based on them... so I assume that means telescopic tech was beyond what we have today.  So, I'm betting that even amatur equipment would be able to see in system pretty well.  It is possible that the light of the system sun might illuminate a ship that is slowing down after a jump or speading up to jump.  Also,,, reflective hulls might make it more likely to be seen. 
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bossmoss's picture
bossmoss
October 27, 2014 - 10:05pm
I do know that in most of the classic science fiction novels (Heinlein, Asimov, etc.), they have to make complicated calculations before every jump.  Most ships would keep a person on board just to do that - the astrogator.  I don't remember the details, but I do know it made more sense the way they explained it.


KRingway's picture
KRingway
October 28, 2014 - 10:03am
Bear in mind that to travel to a distant star, even one that is relatively close, is reliant on knowing or predicting where it will be in space by the time that you get there. A star's position is how it's observed, which in itself is looking into the past. So, your calculations would have to take into account and/or figure out where your target star will be by the time that you get there, as it will have moved in space.

Abub's picture
Abub
October 28, 2014 - 10:34am
I was just thinking about that KR... and makes me poder... in SF would they need some kind of enhancement to a strickly visual method of determining where things are they are attempting to jump to?  

Subspace... its that SciFi fudgery in many many settings.  Does it use the void?  Is it something else outside of real space and possible the root of a different FTL travel method?  Some discovery of an energy wavelength that inately travels FTL (and considering 1 ly = 1 hour in subspace much much faster). 

Describing to myself and my players the sensor capabilities in the setting has left me with just telling them they have relatively short range radar, relatively short range energy sensors and visual.  But really when you boil down void jump calculations... visual isn't good enough.  

For radar to work at a distance of 30 hexes in ten minutes... i'm thinking it can't be radar as we know it.  Or maybe I'm wrong about that.

If you go to far with sensor tech, similar to gravity tech... you can radically change the setting's low-tech FTL space setting.

Maybe sensors has been discussed somewhere already or should be it's own topic.

I'm now thinking this... perhaps on the space lanes... the reason astrogation is so much easier... is because space buoys are installed along the route to communicate in subspace?  Still the need to accuruatly pin-point the target of a subspace transmission makes buoys not useful as you would need to know where they are?

Can you brodcast in subspace radially?  Like could there be a subspace radio station that can be heard at light years distances?  Real radio stations brocastig range is a function of power... maybe a subspace broadcast would have much less range but a series of buoys could be layed out one every ly along the space lane and they could daisy chain info.

How do they judge distances in real life and would that method not be sufficiant in SF?  

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iggy's picture
iggy
October 28, 2014 - 12:15pm
I am only thinking of in-system ships being tracked.  I see our character being on a moon or minor planet watching ships come and go from the main world wishing for the day when one of those ships will burn in his direction giving him a chance to go adventure in the frontier.   I am leaning on the equipment being salvaged starship astrogation optics and detectors.  I am also thinking that they monitor the regular communications signals from the ships as they talk to some form of system traffic control.  I think the character needs to be closer in system to the main world to make observations more possible and poignant, so close but so far away.
-iggy

jedion357's picture
jedion357
October 28, 2014 - 12:44pm
I like the hyper foot print in the Honor Harrington series. Sensors can detect a hyper footprint out to a certain range giving the observer the general size and numbers of incoming ships. No reason that the same effect cannot be used in the Frontier. with the size of space fleet and the militias the existance of a "footprint" would make it easier for the small number of ships to intercept incoming ships be they legit merchantmen that needs to be inspected or enemy combatants bent on mayhem.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 28, 2014 - 7:47pm
Just a couple comments.  The whole space bouy thing has been disucssed in another thread somewhere, but I don't remember where.  We've also had discussions about void jumping covering many of the topics brought up in the last few comments, possibly in the same thread.  I think a search for void jumps and bouys will turn those threads up.

As to knowing the positions of the stars you're jumping to, and their true motion through space, that is probably very well known and tabulated.  Personally, I think that the calculations actually don't take all that long.  it's lining up up the correct vector that takes the time.  As Ascent said, you have to be on course very, very accurately to end up in the right place at the end of a many lightyear jump.  An error of 1 arc second, on a 5 light year jump, means you are off by 1.5 AU.  The hard part isn't doing the calculations, it's measuring your ship's actual motion through space.  It's thinking about these kind of things that prompted me to write my book.  That's really what it is about, the problems of FTL travel using void jumps like in SF.

As to the OP, I've always figured that you could easily see ships accelerating away or decelerating toward you with a moderately sized telescope simply because the exaust from the engines is pointed straight at you and I assume that there is some significant emission in the visible spectrum from at least chemical and atomic engines.  Ships traveling transversely would be much harder to detect as you would be relying more on reflected starlight instead of direct emission from the engines.  Although as mentioned, the reflective hulls would help to increase their albedo and make them easier to see.  In either case, it's still going to be difficult as you'd need to know exactly what you are looking for.
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Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 28, 2014 - 8:58pm
I do remember some of this in other posts and there where some really good thoughts & ideas... 

It seems like too some sort of alert system could exist based on the visible spectrum, telescope set to sweep in a pattern an area of space, recording images that the computer analysis and then alerts the crew/PC that a possible ship is present, this can then needs to be confirmed by a person.
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

KRingway's picture
KRingway
October 29, 2014 - 1:06am
Heat would be one of the best ways of detecting any ships, rather than having to actually look for any visual signs.

If you chaps haven't seen the Atomic Rockets site, this may be of interest:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

Tollon's picture
Tollon
October 29, 2014 - 6:17pm
I use the term Hyperspace for all FTL travel so the terms I'm going to give you will reflect that.

Jedion357 have the same idea about ships in Hyperspace.  Hydar is basically a planetary radar that detects ship's in hyperspace, within 15 minutes of them entering normal space.  Hydar can't be used in Hyperspace because (in my Universe) the hyerspace generator interfers with the it.  It can only tell the direction and tonnage of the incoming ship, nothing more.

Second, entering and leaving hyperspace must cause a physical effect on normal space, therefore (in my universe) a gamma ray space happens each time a ship jumps in or out of Hyperspace.

Just two thoughts I thought might help the discussion.

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 29, 2014 - 8:52pm
Could you explain "gamma ray space" Tollon?

Also open question on ship transponders... can the ship's id signal be picked up by others before exiting the void? Yes, no, maybe? I was thinking it might, then thought no... I suppose it depends on how fast the signal is going in relation to the vessel... like super fast jets that are already through the airspace by the time the radio signal for them is received?
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Tollon's picture
Tollon
October 30, 2014 - 12:43am
Sorry Tchklinxa, it should have read "gamma ray spike".

Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
October 30, 2014 - 4:25am
Oh that helps... thanks
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

Abub's picture
Abub
November 13, 2014 - 12:17pm
Hey.... while driving to work it occured to me where I got the assumption about the void being affected by gravity wells.

I know it is probably a game convienance... but on a misjump... you always pop up at a planet by the rules.  I think that is where I get the idea that gravity wells reach into the void.... on a misjump you get pulled into a planet's gravity well, and that is why you pop up at a planet.


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Tchklinxa's picture
Tchklinxa
November 13, 2014 - 7:26pm
That is true... so gravity could be an issue
 "Never fire a laser at a mirror."

jedion357's picture
jedion357
November 14, 2014 - 3:37am
Abub wrote:
Hey.... while driving to work it occured to me where I got the assumption about the void being affected by gravity wells.

I know it is probably a game convienance... but on a misjump... you always pop up at a planet by the rules.  I think that is where I get the idea that gravity wells reach into the void.... on a misjump you get pulled into a planet's gravity well, and that is why you pop up at a planet.




Then there is the Dragon article about the "Ebony Eyes" - twin black holes discovered on a misjump. No planet but certainly a gravity well.
I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers!

Abub's picture
Abub
November 14, 2014 - 6:00am
well, that is an assumption... as gamers we also need the narative freedom to also plop the PCs in the middle of deep space on a misjump.  So sometimes they don't get pulled into the well... but perhaps they can get thrown off course in the void... slingshotted and when they drop out of the void they are not at the gravity source at all but have been effected by one.


oh... how about this... gravity wells the exsist in the void itself so maybe you plop out in the real space equivlant of the other side of a void blackhole.  Rare and unpredictable... a tool for narative purposes.
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