Updates

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 19, 2010 - 5:47pm
Dramune Class Frigate Updates

I just added a torpedo rail for mounting the two torpedoes. Though im not enitely sure what delivery system a ship with only two torpedoes would use. I am thinking that an external hard point mount with a jet fighter style explosive bolt system may separate the torpedoes from the ship and then once away from the ship their engines would engage. A torpedo tube launcher seems a little excessive for a ship that only carries two torps.

I also added an observation canopy, a fly bridge could be located below this feature or it could just be an observation area for star gazing, visual navigation, exploration / observatory etc. This also could serve the function of a bridge for docking manuvers. Also could serve as private get-away for hero characters to converse, scheme, or just chill out away from the bustle of the main bridge.

Considering escape pods and possibly fitting some visible masking screen emitters but I dont want to over detail the model.
Comments:

Georgie's picture
Georgie
October 20, 2010 - 5:39pm
As torpedoes are not Forward Firing only, I envision more of a turret/rack mounted system, like modern day navy ships.

For example, see the turret mounted atop the freighter on page 50 of the Knight Hawks (modified) PDF.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.    * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 20, 2010 - 7:26pm
The only problem I am experiencing with that is in size proportions for yet another turret. While keeping to the original shape shown on the mini and the silhouette there really arent any turret emplacements like you describe. The rocket batteries are kind of obvious even if not shown in the chit silhouette or the various pics throughout the rules. The torpedoes are described as much larger than AR as a fighter cannot carry them so They would have to be fairly large so a turret doesnt really fit onto the model. I will take a look at what I can do with that. The point of the project is to create a digital model as close to the original SFKH design as possible with the construction modeling materials I have to work with.
 

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 20, 2010 - 8:19pm

Considering that Torpedoes are guided weapons it wouldnt matter where the launchers were mounted as the torps could manuver in flight to their target.


iggy's picture
iggy
October 20, 2010 - 9:18pm
What if the torpedoes fired out perpendicular to the ship like submarines launching ICBMs.  Or, the torpedoes could be released from the attached housing you show, pivot toward their target and then fire their main engine.  I also agree that the torpedoes are large because fighters can't cary them.

I like that you are sticking to the mini.  Hopefully these ideas can help.
-iggy

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 21, 2010 - 4:07pm
ooooh i do like the submarine reference and that could really work. I would like to say that i am not against the idea of a torpedo launcher in a turret. However in the digital model there just isnt room for a properly proportioned torpedo turrett on the surface of the hull frame. SFKH Frigates are not very large being about the size of a Saturn Rocket so there isnt a lot of surface area for turrets.

iggy's picture
iggy
October 21, 2010 - 4:14pm
Kinda like B5.  The frigate approaches and opens it's gun ports.  Then the humans get scared and start shooting. Smile
-iggy

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 21, 2010 - 6:27pm
exactly, i think

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 21, 2010 - 11:03pm
Terl Obar sent me some suggestions for making the sizes a little more proportionate for the canon ship designs. They included reducing the # of physical battery emplacements for RB down to one. The reason being that the battery has four reload shots for the same battery. The new Obar Class has smaller turrets that are recessed into the hull when not in use. The two torpedoes have been moved to two horizontally oriented launchers on each side of the laser cannon. (I may move these a little farther back on the model as their is some open hull space in the engineering hull area that may accomodate the tubes better. Take a look.

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 22, 2010 - 8:00am

Here's what I sent to AZ last night.  I actually tried to post it here first but the site blew up on me and I couldn't connect (kept timeing out and the post didn't happen).

My first thought when I saw the pictures were that the weapons were too big relative to the body of the ship. If we're trying to go for proportions based on the standard canon rules (which there are arguably issues with) we have the following:

Frigate - HS 5 - 100m long by 15m diameter
Laser Cannon - 40 m^3
Laser Battery - 20 m^3
Rocket Battery launcher - 40 m^3
Rocket Battery Salvo (x4) - 10 m^3 each (40 m^3 total)
Torpedo Launcher - 75 m^3
Torpedo (x2) - 20 m^3 each (40 m^3 total)
ICM launcher - 20 m^3
ICM (x4) - 5 m^3 each (20 m^3 total)
Masking Screen Launcher - 10 m^3
Masking Screen (x2) - 25 m^3 each (50 m^3) total

Total weapon and defense volume = 355 m^3

If the frigate were just a cylinder with the stated dimensions, it would have a total volume of 17671.5 m^3. Let's assume you really only have 80% of that to work with for the tapered nose and such. That still leaves you with ~14100 m^3. At 355 m^3 the weapons represent 2.5% of that space. If a deck is typically 3m in height, all of the weapons and defenses would fit in the volume of a single 15m diameter deck (530 m^3). Heck, they'd almost even fit in a tiny deck that is only 2m (6.5 ft) high (353.4 m^3). And since the LC is going to mounted else where, they would all fit.

I've always imagined, as iggy suggested, that the torpedoes were much like on a submarine. (In fact, I think of KH ships very much like submarines in many aspects.) You have a launch tube that either points out the side of the ship on the weapons deck, or possibly out the front of the ship. In AZ's models, you could possibly have the tube coming out of the part of the ship right under the laser cannon. Since a torpedo is 20 m^3, I'd give it a 1.8m diameter and 10m length. Thus you'd need a launch tube about 2m in diameter. When launched, the torpedo leaves the ship, orients on it's target, and takes off on it's main engines.

For the rocket battery, I've always imagined something along the lines of the following: You have a turret that can swivel to launch the salvo of rockets and then returns to a home position (perpendicular to the hull of the ship and flush with it) where the back opens up and a new salvo is loaded from the ship. At that point it is free to move and track on targets again. So instead of the four launchers depicted in the image there would be only one.

I image the ICM launcher working the same way and that the ICM missiles are really a salvo of smaller missiles that launch out to intercept the incoming rockets/torpedoes/missiles. The entire system is smaller so it can move faster (less mass) and fire off as many ICM salvos as you want very, very quickly.

I like the laser battery in the image. The only difference is that I'd move it (and the ICM launcher) back to replace two of the rocket battery launchers. Where it is located, they are both somewhat masked by the hull of the ship from firing behind the frigate.

I'm definitely of the camp that for the rocket battery, torpedoes, seeker missiles, etc, you have a single launcher with multiple shots that require a reload. As depicted, there is no reason you couldn't fire all four rocket battery shots and both torpedoes in a single round. There have been discussions of that before and my personal interpretation of the rules is in the single launcher with multiple shots direction.

I've also always imagined the turrets more recessed into the ship, not sticking out as drawn. I recognize that there is a limit to the modeling available (without a lot of work) and as drawn they look great. The reason I've always assumed that they are more recessed is protection/security. If all your weapons are hanging out like that it makes them more vulnerable to attack/sabotage. A good hit on one of those exposed torpedoes and you could set it off right next to the hull. The same is true of the rocket batteries. If they are on the inside, on the other hand, at least the hull provides some protection. Anyway, just a though.

So all told, my modifications would be the following:
1) Scale down the battery weapons, probably to about 1/2 or more of their current size. They should be no more than about 5% of the ships length in size. You could go up to about 10% for artistic license but in reality, they are fairly small. A 40 m^3 weapon is only a box about 3m x 3m x 4m in size and on a ship that is 100m long that is only 4% of the length. And that's the "big" rocket battery, the LB and ICM launcher are half that size.
2) Remove all but one of the RB launchers leaving the one on top
3) Move the ICM launcher and LB back to take the place of the two RB launchers on the sides. Or if you want more symmetry in your design, put the LB on top and the RB and ICM launchers on the sides (lasers, top and bottom, rockets on the sides).
4) Remove the torpedoes from the top of the ship and add a launch tube on the bottom strut with the opening under the LC. It could even be canted somewhat inside the ship if necessary to avoid having the torpedo hitting the LC on the way out of the tube.
5) You could leave the LC as is or maybe shrink it's width and height a bit. I'd leave the length long, however, as you want the lasing cavity as long as possible to provide a tight collimated beam.

6) Finally, the arms on the rocket battery and ICM launcher need to be much longer. As drawn there is no way they can swivel up to shoot away from the ship. There is no clearance.

All told, however, I think the drawings are great and you could just leave them as they are.

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Georgie's picture
Georgie
October 22, 2010 - 2:10pm
I agree with Terl - except for the ICMs. I see them as more of a Patriot missile battery packed in a vertical launch system (I guess horizontal in SF given the deck orientation). Each ICM is a single missile with either a large warhead or is packed with hundreds of submunitions. The vertical launch system gives them the capability to ripple fire quickly.

Viewing ICMs this way does make it harder to envision torpedoes using this system, since these are limited to firing once per turn. Maybe torpedoes use some sort of rotary launcher like the B-52?
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.    * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

TerlObar's picture
TerlObar
October 22, 2010 - 3:21pm
Georgie's idea for the ICM's actually makes more sense.  I'm converted.  And I will admit that the canon description indicates a single missile.

I think it would have to be a missile with submunions, if a single missile is going to be effective against a rocket battery shot that has multiple in-bound rockets in a single shot.  Since we're in space, you cannot rely on the shock wave generated in an atmosphere by a big explosion to do proximity damage.  In space there is nothing to carry the shock.  You need direct hits on the inbound weapons to take them out, either with shrapnel from the explosion or lots of little submunitions that spread out to engage the individual targets.
Ad Astra Per Ardua!
Webmaster - The Star Frontiers Network & this site
Founding Editor - The Frontier Explorer Magazine
Managing Editor - The Star Frontiersman Magazine

AZ_GAMER's picture
AZ_GAMER
October 23, 2010 - 12:31pm
Here is where I stand on the project so far.

Dixon Class is going back to the drawing board for some re-work, I like the idea of having the Dixon Frigate with its unique "shovel nose" command module but it will need a little more work before its ready for service.

The Dramune Class pretty much is ready to go. I have taken Terl's advice to heart and will implement his changes into the Obar Class Frigate and maybe the next model. I like the aggressive look the four indepdent rocket batteries give the Dramune class so I think I will keep that configuration as is. As far as the torpedoes are concerned I may move them to the main hull or possibly leave them as is. I have reduced the size of the rocket batteries to be closer to that described by Terl. I definitely agree that a single rocket battery with four salvo loads works but it looks a little unbalanced.

While I really like the design changes that went into the obar class, there is just something missing on model. It looks a little lopsided when the weapons are deployed and a little lack luster when they are stowed. Don't get me wrong, I will figure out a remedy for this its just perplexing me for the moment.

Georgie's picture
Georgie
October 30, 2010 - 7:27am
I've given a little more thought to what a torpedo launcher might look like. Perhaps it is more akin to the single arm missile launchers of the earlier guided missile ships (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_13_missile_launcher). This would load from an internal magazine and would provide for the rate of fire of one per turn.
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.    * Attributed to Mahatma Gandhi

Will the Stampede's picture
Will the Stampede
November 27, 2010 - 2:32pm
On the other hand, why bother with a launcher. In either space, orbit or atmo, you can get away with storing the torps in a bomb-bay like arrangement; once dropped and clear of the ship, the torps can be programmed to engage their own engines and maneuver towards their intended targets.

Of course, using a bay arrangement opens up the inside of your ship to enemy attack.

Alternately, you can treat the torp rails as external hardpoints, much like the hardpoints on aircraft. 
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