 October 27, 2007 - 7:32pm | Working on rank insignia... in chat you and I discussed a phoenix-like symbol... what do you think of this: 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 27, 2007 - 8:02pm | Or how about this one... 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 27, 2007 - 9:04pm | Okay - here's the first five ranks, O1-O5... I figured these can all be in silver to show low-grade officer. Commander and up are to follow, but they'll be mixed brass and silver. Upper officers should all be in brass. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
 October 28, 2007 - 10:32am | I like those five silver insignias. You ought to invoke the UPF shield shape in some of the higher ranks. I like the second phoenix, perhaps you could invoke those as admiral ranks (bronze for rear admiral, silver for admral, and gold for fleet admiral) |
 October 28, 2007 - 3:02pm | I like the sound of Commodore rather than Rear Admiral... just sounds better. <insert witty comment here> |
October 28, 2007 - 9:08pm | I'm open for any kind of discussion on these. Imperial Lord has some ideas on how he wants 'em to look... I'm illustrating them for an article he's writing for the StarFrontiersman. He has 14 Officer-grade ranks. The second phoenix (a "knight hawk"?) will definately be core to the ranks of admiralty - but I'm unsure yet how he wants 'em to go. Imperial Lord - can you provide a description for me to finish illustrating? 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
October 29, 2007 - 2:11am | I like the sound of Commodore rather than Rear Admiral... just sounds better. How about Colonel of the urinal? |
 October 29, 2007 - 5:56pm | I can't exactly visualize, but you have been on the money about 90% of the time. I would go with your instincts. |
 November 24, 2007 - 8:56pm | Here's a page with ranks and insignia for Star Frontiers. It's been around a while, but I don't know how many have seen it. http://www.starfrontiers.com/Solanus/index.htm |
November 24, 2007 - 11:00pm | what about an insignia or rank that with each level built upon the last so that when you get to, say General its the outline of a UPF Military ship? OT: Gilbert had a neat idea that if a ship had a SpaceFleet General on it the ship would get : + to Initiative DCR Bonus % chance to hit |
November 26, 2007 - 5:04pm | Well Corjay... Yes I have seen that. But I did not really like the insignia, or the ranks themselves. I have always liked "sergeant" more than "petty officer". And I thought that the other ranks had too much of a pattern to them. |
November 26, 2007 - 5:08pm | Plus I was never into Warrant Officers and Specialists. The USAF uses neither - and I always thought that was much more streamlined and sensible. Their regulations are the youngest, and therefore probably the most modern and efficient. |
November 26, 2007 - 5:18pm | It makes an interesting twist on space travel to make it seem like an extension of the air force rather than navy. Nearly all other sci-fi that I'm familiar with makes it have a look and feel of the navy. But then again, even in Knight Hawks, the ships have naval designations: frigate, destroyer, battleship, etc. 3. We wear sungoggles during the day. Not because the sun affects our
vision, but when you're cool like us the sun shines all the time. |
June 10, 2008 - 8:36am | Hey Bill - you gonna pick this back up anytime soon? Would make a GREAT zine article... |
December 15, 2008 - 9:05pm | Well Corjay... Yes I have seen that. But I did not really like the insignia, or the ranks themselves. I have always liked "sergeant" more than "petty officer". As a petty officer (QM1, or first-class petty officer, enlisted navigation specialist), I have to say that army-style ranks are pretty jarring in a naval service. And I thought that the other ranks had too much of a pattern to them. Plus I was never into Warrant Officers and Specialists. The USAF uses neither - and I always thought that was much more streamlined and sensible. Their regulations are the youngest, and therefore probably the most modern and efficient. Warrants serve a purpose today, but would be even more useful in a society with such longevity - the rank ladder needs more rungs so people can feel like their getting somewhere without necessarily crowding them all in at the top of the pyramid. Specialists, not a naval usage today, might make sense in SF for short-timers, but not for careerists. As for modernity and efficiency, the AF inherited everything from the Army, the oldest service, and therefore picked up a lot of bureacracy and tradition. It makes an interesting twist on space travel to make it seem like an extension of the air force rather than navy. Nearly all other sci-fi that I'm familiar with makes it have a look and feel of the navy. But then again, even in Knight Hawks, the ships have naval designations: frigate, destroyer, battleship, etc. It makes sense. The AF isn't equipped to run a navy. They send small detachments in small vehicles on short runs to perform particular missions. They don't manage large crews in large vessels on extended deployments where you don't leave the ship for weeks or months. They receive a largish per diem for living in shipboard conditions, because they don't know how to deal with the personal space restrictions. I look at the AF as the natural progression to something like Traveller's System Defense Boats, and as a quick strike / fighter detachment command. Like Wing Commander, I do like the idea of a more joint service, where the zoomies operate all the fighters, even those deployed on naval aircraft. I think we should do that today, but, of course, we won't. Nobody's willing to give up their turf. Here's my take on the ranks: O-1 - Ensign O-2 - Sub-lieutenant (Brit naval rank) O-3 - LTjg O-4 - LT O-5 - LTsg (senior grade) O-5+ - Fleet LT - LTsg's with extra seniority, usually a rising star - often given as a partial promotion for someone not yet in zone for the next full grade, but seen as deserving of higher rank. O-6 - LT Commander O-7 - Commander O-8 - Fleet Commander O-9 Sub-Captain O-10 - Captain O-11 - Fleet Captain / Commodore - FCPT is equivalent in authority to CMDR, but in command of a single large unit, such as a CV, while a CMDR is in command of a group, such as a detachment of AS's or a task group of various units, but one small enough not to require a full flag officer. O-14 - Post captain - senior to all other captains, and grooming for flag rank. O-13 - Rear Admiral O-14 - Vice Admiral O-15 - Admiral O-16 - Fleet Admiral W-1 Warrant Officer - basic senior enlisted given officer rank to better advise from within the wardroom - this is a problem in the navy today: a petty officer tells his officer how to accomplish a technical task, and the officer can't accept it without endorsement from a chief. Sometimes, even that's not good enough, and so warrants are needed to be able to say: listen, @$$, this is the way it is. Junior officers generally are afraid of LDOs and Warrants, prior enlisted who don't need to deal with a lot of the political garbage JOs do. W-2 Senior warrant W-3 Senior warrant 2 W-4 Chief Warrant W-5 Chief warrant 2 W-6 Master Warrant W-7 Master warrant 2 Back in the days of sail, warrants were basically petty officers given officer-equivalent rank for the duration of a tour of duty, but only by their captain, not their service. Today, they are commissioned by the president, while regular officers are commissioned by congress. E-1 - E-4: Spacer Recruit / Junior Spacer / Spacer / senior Spacer E-5 - E-8: 4th-class petty officer through 1st-class PO E-9 - E-12: Chief petty officers: Junior Chief, Chief, senior chief, and master chief. Basically, we need junior enlisted ( at least 2 ranks, so there's room to bust people down), at least 2 grades of PO, for junior and senior POs, and chiefs. All of these get expanded to provide careerists room to grow over a long career in a very long life. We have a use for warrants, but don't need them when officers can actually listen to enlisted. Regular officers, we need junior officers (JOs), mid-grade officers, senior officers, command rank officers, and flag rank officers. Again, we expand to provide breathing room for careers. When there's trouble, you call DW! |
December 15, 2008 - 9:56pm | Good stuff Darkwing! |
December 20, 2008 - 12:28pm | Nicely done Darkwing, In terms of AF regs, they were (are) extremely modern and streamlined. My grandfather was involved in reviewing them as a sergeant major shortly after WWII and said they were a great step up from the Army regs. Hap Arnold and Curtis LeMay and other great Air Force leaders saw to that. My grandfather was actually invited to "cross over" to the AF, but he refused. He had enough of the military during the war. Some things about the ranks: I have never been a big fan of "sub" anything. I prefer "Lieutenant" or "Vice" or something like that. In terms of the Petty Officer thing, I understand that your naval background makes the idea of sergeants on ships disconcerting. As former Air Force guy, I understand that. However, I just never liked the name "petty officer". Why "petty"? It's almost... Degrading... Then again, I am not a Navy guy, so I don't know how you guys look at it. Also, your ranks need to be a little more "spacey". You might think it's cheesey, but I always thought there should be some of that in there. Hence "Space Commander", "Star Sergeant", "Star Admiral." I could live without warrant officers. The USAF currently does. But I could see a case for them, since they are technical specialists and this is the most technical military endeavor possible, pretty much. |
January 3, 2009 - 5:57pm | Nicely done Darkwing, thank you. I don't mean to denigrate your work either, just defend naval ranks in a naval service. In terms of AF regs, they were (are) extremely modern and streamlined. My grandfather was involved in reviewing them as a sergeant major shortly after WWII and said they were a great step up from the Army regs. Hap Arnold and Curtis LeMay and other great Air Force leaders saw to that. of course, they've evolved since. My own experience is that often a papershuffler will justify his existence by writing new regs and submitting them, and not always improve things - for example, the navigation instruction used to give us latitude to determine our fix interval (how often we figure out where we are) based on a good rule of thumb. A junior officer submitted a "new, safer version" which amounted to dictating that the interval be set on the assumption that we are on a direct course for land at 15 knots. That meant a little more work for us, but no improvement in safety, and less judgement required. When the navy invited comment on new uniforms and the uniform regs, they were deluged with request to change the backpack rules. Well, we finally got to wear backpacks, but only certain colors, and the manner of wear depended on what uniform you were in. There were about a half dozen rules to follow in order to wear one. But somebody needed to micromanage the privilege. My grandfather was actually invited to "cross over" to the AF, but he refused. He had enough of the military during the war. I'd bet he did!Some things about the ranks: I have never been a big fan of "sub" anything. I prefer "Lieutenant" or "Vice" or something like that. I don't mind, but I only cribbed it from the Brits for wider variety. I kind of like "Ensign jg" from the one episode of TNG. In terms of the Petty Officer thing, I understand that your naval background makes the idea of sergeants on ships disconcerting. As former Air Force guy, I understand that. However, I just never liked the name "petty officer". Why "petty"? It's almost... Degrading... Then again, I am not a Navy guy, so I don't know how you guys look at it. well, most of us don't think about it, but it does come from the french for 'small' - before the phrase 'non-commissioned officer', or NCO, and means 'small officer', or 'officer with lesser authority'. But we also don't actually use 'petty officer' much daily. We refer to E-4, Second-class (short for second-class petty officer), and most often, rate. For example, I'm a first-class PO, rated as a Quartermaster, so I'm "QM1" - also "charts" or "wheels", because I work with charts, and my rating symbol is the helm wheel. A Boatswain's Mate (aka Bos'ns Mate, "Boats") second class would be BM2, and so on. I'll try to post a set of rates updated for trek I did a few years ago. Obviously, some things would need to be changed, since the Frontier does'nt use warp drive, but c'est la guerre.Also, your ranks need to be a little more "spacey". You might think it's cheesey, but I always thought there should be some of that in there. Hence "Space Commander", "Star Sergeant", "Star Admiral." I was in a rush, as S'bucks was closing, and didn't have time to really consider such adornments. Another thought I've had since is to make the seaman-rank (spacers) ALL be E-1, differentiated by a letter - E-1A through E-1D, instead of E-1 - E-4. All POs would be E-2A - E2D, and so on. I could live without warrant officers. The USAF currently does. But I could see a case for them, since they are technical specialists and this is the most technical military endeavor possible, pretty much. In an ideal world, so can I. They exist by name due to tradition, and by function due to intransigence, stupidty, arrogance, and blindness in the wardroom. Today, the navy needs them for that reason. In a future service that refused to accept the separate class ideology inherited from the medieval armies and navies, we could dispense with them. I wouldn't, simply to provide extra rungs on the ladder to account for the longer careers of longer-lived future servicemembers. But in such a case, I could also see them devolving from being officers to super-chiefs, instead. When there's trouble, you call DW! |
January 3, 2009 - 5:58pm | these are intended to show the rates from Pike's time to Picard's, so some rates would be disestablished in later decades, and others would not exist until those same later years. Enlisted rates for Starfleet Pay grades modern designator SF designator BM: Boatswain’s Mate based on modern BM/ABE/ABF/ABH. Deck dept CF: Flight Controller based on modern AC, Air Traffic Controller. Flight or Ops dept. Clearance required. CT: Communications Technician based on modern IT/RM, CT, IC, SM, ST, EW, DP/DS Comm or Ops dept DC: Damage Controller based on modern DC. Engineering dept DT: Dental Technician based on modern DT. Medical Dept ES: Environmental Specialist. Based on modern EN/HT. Engineering dept. FC:Fire Controller based on modern FC/FT. Weapons dept GM: Gunner’s Mate. Based on modern GM. Weapons dept and/or Security dept GT: Gravitics Technician. Engineering dept/Life support/environment division HM: Hospital Corpsman (Corpsman). Based on modern HM. Medical dept. HT: Hull Technician/ShipFitter based on modern HT. Engineering dept. IE: Impulse Engineer based on modern BT/MM/GS/EN. Engineering dept. IS: Intelligence Specialist. Based on modern IS. Intell, Comm, or Ops dept. JO: Journalist based on modern JO/PH/LI. Admin dept LN: Legalman. Based on modern LN. Admin or Legal dept; JAG LS: Laboratory Specialist__ . Science dept (Ops on some small ships). MA: Master-At-Arms based on todays’ MA. Security or Admin dept. MS: Mess Specialist based on modern MS. Supply dept MT: Meteorology Technician based on modern AG. Science or Ops dept. OS: Operations Specialist. Based on modern OS. Ops dept OT: Ordinance Technician based on modern AO/TM/MN/MT/FC/GM. Weapons dept. PC: Postal Clerk based on modern PC. Admin or Supply dept. PS: Personnel specialist based on modern PN, DK. Admin dept. PT: Power Technician based loosely on modern EM/AE. Engineering dept. QM:Quartermaster based on modern QM. Navigation or Ops dept, possibly also Science dept. Perform navigation, plot courses, maintain charts and stellar cartography (in conjunction with astrophysics). Steer courses, especially under difficult conditions, such as orbit, constrained spaces, atmospheric flight, and operations alongside other ships. Take bearings, make course/speed recommendations, maintain logs, command small craft. Perform stellar and planetary cartography. May be qualified as coxswains, and uphold service traditions. One of the oldest extant rates. RP:Religious Programs Specialist based on modern RP. Medical or Chapel dept. RS: Reconnaissance & Survival Specialist . Security dept. RT:Reactor Techician (TOS Era);Reactor/Intermix Technician (TMP Era); Core Specialist [CS(TNG Era)] based on modern BT/MM/ Engineering tech (Warrant Nuke Power tech). Engineering dept. SE: Survival/EVA Equipment Specialist based loosely on modern PR. Engineering, Flight, or Ops dept. SG:Security Guard based loosely on modern MA/GM. Security or weapons dept. SH: Ship’s Serviceman based on modern SH. Supply dept. SK: StoreKeeper (onetime Supply Clerk). Based on modern SK, AK. Supply dept. ST: Sensor Technician based onmodern EW, STG/STS, CTM/CTR. Ops or Comm dept. TO: Transporter Operator . Engineering, Deck dept. disestablished, folded into BM, TT in TMP Era. TS: Technical Specialist based on modern MM, MR,PM,ET,AE,AD,AS,AT,AM,AS, and DS9 ep (O’Brien identifies his rate/rating as “Senior Chief Technical Specialist”, an E-8). Engineering or Ops dept. TT: Transporter Technician . Engineering dept. WE: Warp Engineer based on modern BT, MM,GS. Engineering dept. YN: Yeoman based on modernYN. Admin dept. When there's trouble, you call DW! |
 May 19, 2011 - 6:37pm | Cool I am going to borrow some of this stuff guys. Hope you don't mind. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
 May 22, 2011 - 4:58am | Cool I am going to borrow some of this stuff guys. Hope you don't mind. its posted on a public site, borrow away and we should get our heads together with w00t to discuss an article for the fan zine- even if its just a "dry" guide to ranks and insignia of the frontier I'm betting it would be well received. I appreciate the comprehensiveness of the work you are doing. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
May 26, 2011 - 1:41pm | Thanks Jedion. More to come. Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men. Edwin Louis Cole |
 January 25, 2013 - 9:34pm | I've been pondering variations for their flag lately. Then I recalled the plague worlds were quarantined after the UPF was founded so it should probably 22 stars instead. |
January 26, 2013 - 7:04am | I've been pondering variations for their flag lately. Then I recalled the plague worlds were quarantined after the UPF was founded so it should probably 22 stars instead. the plague worlds are a problem best ignored IMO the flag is great as is. i want one as a sticker to put on my car. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 26, 2013 - 9:07am | Thank you, here are a couple of 22's. Need to space the trailers better, its throwing off the spacing for the stars. Here is a Frontier spin on the UFP flag.  No larger stars because they are all equal. Yeah, the plague worlds are a pain but tossing them in gives us a nice round 22 with seventeen stars from AD and the five plague stars. I get the sixteen for the first by not counting the Dixon's Star "outpost." |
January 26, 2013 - 12:34pm | I like the second one without the upf letters. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
January 26, 2013 - 12:59pm | I get the sixteen for the first by not counting the Dixon's Star "outpost."
Technically you shouldn't count Prenglar & Scree Fron, as AD lists Morgaine's World & Histran as outposts. Nice logo regardless of the represntations. |
 January 26, 2013 - 7:53pm | So far the first one is my favorite. |
August 4, 2014 - 8:05pm | Thank you, here are a couple of 22's. Need to space the trailers better, its throwing off the spacing for the stars. Here is a Frontier spin on the UFP flag. No larger stars because they are all equal. Yeah, the plague worlds are a pain but tossing them in gives us a nice round 22 with seventeen stars from AD and the five plague stars. I get the sixteen for the first by not counting the Dixon's Star "outpost." It just occured to me that there is a problem with the concept here- some stars have two inhabited worlds and in the case of Dramune the two worlds could not be further apart politically. having a flag representing the UPF based on the stars could be seen as problematic by star systems with multiple colonies. I might not be a dralasite, vrusk or yazirian but I do play one in Star Frontiers! |
