Explanations are in order....

Will's picture
Will
October 17, 2007 - 11:17am
Refer to: Clarion-class Strike Cruiser.
I built the ship using the system in my house rules.

ABM=Anti-Beam Missiles
MS=Mag Shielding
HLC=Heavy Laser Cannon, not to be confused with the weapon of the same name in Shadow's house rules.
HLB=Heavy Laser Battery, as above(please, no lawsuits, I am poor!).

I used Hull Points instead of Structural Points to make it more playable for everyone. For anyone reading my house rules, Dice of Hull Damage=Dice of SP damage/20.  

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation
Comments:

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
October 17, 2007 - 12:52pm
Did you post your house rules somewhere....like the House Rules Wiki
I'm interested in viewing them.
Smile

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 17, 2007 - 6:00pm
Yes, he has posted them in the wiki.

Hey Will, if you put your house rules front page link in your signature, it can help people know about your house rules.

I view HP (spaceships) as 10 times SP, and SP (vehicles) as 10 times STA (Character), and thus HP is 100 times STA. It makes it easy to comprehend damage.

Will's picture
Will
October 18, 2007 - 11:38am
How do you do that, Corjay?

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
October 18, 2007 - 11:44am
Will wrote:
How do you do that, Corjay?


Will, go to this link
http://starfrontiers.us/user/78/edit/account
and scroll down to Comment Signature



Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 18, 2007 - 7:14pm
Will. You'll need to use the linking button on the RTF editor to add the link to a phrase.

Will's picture
Will
October 19, 2007 - 11:55am

My house rules are now linked to my new sig.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Will's picture
Will
October 19, 2007 - 11:59am
Corjay wrote:
Yes, he has posted them in the wiki.

Hey Will, if you put your house rules front page link in your signature, it can help people know about your house rules.

I view HP (spaceships) as 10 times SP, and SP (vehicles) as 10 times STA (Character), and thus HP is 100 times STA. It makes it easy to comprehend damage.


So an assault scout would have a 1,500 STA? A little high, don't you think?

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
October 19, 2007 - 12:39pm
Will wrote:
Corjay wrote:
Yes, he has posted them in the wiki.

Hey Will, if you put your house rules front page link in your signature, it can help people know about your house rules.

I view HP (spaceships) as 10 times SP, and SP (vehicles) as 10 times STA (Character), and thus HP is 100 times STA. It makes it easy to comprehend damage.


So an assault scout would have a 1,500 STA? A little high, don't you think?


what is STA?

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 19, 2007 - 3:12pm
Will wrote:
My house rules are now linked to my new sig.
I know I'm annoying like this, but how are people supposed to know that your sig is your house rules?

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 19, 2007 - 3:33pm
Will wrote:
Corjay wrote:
Yes, he has posted them in the wiki.

Hey Will, if you put your house rules front page link in your signature, it can help people know about your house rules.

I view HP (spaceships) as 10 times SP, and SP (vehicles) as 10 times STA (Character), and thus HP is 100 times STA. It makes it easy to comprehend damage.


So an assault scout would have a 1,500 STA? A little high, don't you think?
No. Considering that you don't count the extra 2 zeros. When you consider that a human is nothing but destructable flesh, a grenade would demolish a human with 45 STA with a direct hit (full damage), but wouldn't do diddly squat to a large ship of 45 HP. Thus the ship's 45 HP is comparable to 4,500 STA. No human could ever come close to the survivability of a ship.

w00t. I thought we were all playing the same game here. STA=Stamina.

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 19, 2007 - 3:47pm
I have to correct myself about STA and SP. SP is equal to STA. Vehicles themselves have 10 times the number of a character's STA, so 45 STA is as effective to a character in character battle as 450 SP is to a vehicle in vehicle battle. A direct hit from a grenade could do substantial damage to a vehicle with 450 SP, which is one tenth of a spaceship's 45 HP. So the spaceship's HP is still 100 times that of a character's STA.

Of course, size has a bearing on the vehicle's SP and the spaceship's HP, but not on the character's STA. I'm just making a point about the scale being gradient between 1 to over 10,000 from characters to spaceships.

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
October 19, 2007 - 4:27pm
Corjay wrote:
w00t. I thought we were all playing the same game here. STA=Stamina.


errr...someon I thought it was in reference to Knight Hawks.
Money mouth

Will's picture
Will
October 20, 2007 - 8:45am
Corjay wrote:
I have to correct myself about STA and SP. SP is equal to STA. Vehicles themselves have 10 times the number of a character's STA, so 45 STA is as effective to a character in character battle as 450 SP is to a vehicle in vehicle battle. A direct hit from a grenade could do substantial damage to a vehicle with 450 SP, which is one tenth of a spaceship's 45 HP. So the spaceship's HP is still 100 times that of a character's STA.

Of course, size has a bearing on the vehicle's SP and the spaceship's HP, but not on the character's STA. I'm just making a point about the scale being gradient between 1 to over 10,000 from characters to spaceships.


But, KH spacecraft are not that big, and RL spacecraft are not that tough...a 100-ton shuttle was destroyed when a piece of foam knocked off a couple of its heat tiles.

It won't be that different for KH starships, being more large aircraft than anything else; even with armor, they're not ever going to be bricks. A direct hit with a grenade rifle(assuming low altitude/grounded, no defenses and such), or with a laser rifle on setting 20 should be able to do some damage to a smaller starship like a fighter or an assault scout, just as someone with an assault can—under the right circumstances—put holes in an Apache, a Harrier, an A-10 or even a jet fighter which gets too low to the ground.

Least, that's my opinion. 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Anonymous's picture
w00t (not verified)
October 20, 2007 - 12:17pm
Will wrote:
Corjay wrote:
I have to correct myself about STA and SP. SP is equal to STA. Vehicles themselves have 10 times the number of a character's STA, so 45 STA is as effective to a character in character battle as 450 SP is to a vehicle in vehicle battle. A direct hit from a grenade could do substantial damage to a vehicle with 450 SP, which is one tenth of a spaceship's 45 HP. So the spaceship's HP is still 100 times that of a character's STA.

Of course, size has a bearing on the vehicle's SP and the spaceship's HP, but not on the character's STA. I'm just making a point about the scale being gradient between 1 to over 10,000 from characters to spaceships.


But, KH spacecraft are not that big, and RL spacecraft are not that tough...a 100-ton shuttle was destroyed when a piece of foam knocked off a couple of its heat tiles.

It won't be that different for KH starships, being more large aircraft than anything else; even with armor, they're not ever going to be bricks. A direct hit with a grenade rifle(assuming low altitude/grounded, no defenses and such), or with a laser rifle on setting 20 should be able to do some damage to a smaller starship like a fighter or an assault scout, just as someone with an assault can—under the right circumstances—put holes in an Apache, a Harrier, an A-10 or even a jet fighter which gets too low to the ground.

Least, that's my opinion.


I agree. Is there a resolution mechanic that can resolve this?


Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 20, 2007 - 1:20pm
Will wrote:
Corjay wrote:
I have to correct myself about STA and SP. SP is equal to STA. Vehicles themselves have 10 times the number of a character's STA, so 45 STA is as effective to a character in character battle as 450 SP is to a vehicle in vehicle battle. A direct hit from a grenade could do substantial damage to a vehicle with 450 SP, which is one tenth of a spaceship's 45 HP. So the spaceship's HP is still 100 times that of a character's STA.

Of course, size has a bearing on the vehicle's SP and the spaceship's HP, but not on the character's STA. I'm just making a point about the scale being gradient between 1 to over 10,000 from characters to spaceships.


But, KH spacecraft are not that big, and RL spacecraft are not that tough...a 100-ton shuttle was destroyed when a piece of foam knocked off a couple of its heat tiles.

It won't be that different for KH starships, being more large aircraft than anything else; even with armor, they're not ever going to be bricks. A direct hit with a grenade rifle(assuming low altitude/grounded, no defenses and such), or with a laser rifle on setting 20 should be able to do some damage to a smaller starship like a fighter or an assault scout, just as someone with an assault can—under the right circumstances—put holes in an Apache, a Harrier, an A-10 or even a jet fighter which gets too low to the ground.

Least, that's my opinion.
So you say protective tiles were knocked off protecting the shuttle from 3,200 degrees of heat. So what destroyed the shuttle? Knocking off the tile, or 3,200 degrees of heat friction in 10,000 mph winds? (I'm being conservative with the temperature and wind speed.)

How much heat friction wind can your body withstand? 110 degrees in 60-70 mph winds? Beyond that you're a roast duck. Between the temperature and speed differences, that's 4 extra zeroes.

Now how many knife stabs can you withstand compared to a KH size 4 ship? Or how many grenades? Or how many bullet wounds?

Also remember that damage is abstracted by the figures, representing more than just how much damage it can take, but also how much it can resist or avoid. A ship can certainly take hundreds of times more punishment than any human.

Will's picture
Will
October 21, 2007 - 8:13am
Corjay wrote:
So you say protective tiles were knocked off protecting the shuttle from 3,200 degrees of heat. So what destroyed the shuttle? Knocking off the tile, or 3,200 degrees of heat friction in 10,000 mph winds? (I'm being conservative with the temperature and wind speed.)


Let me break this down for those who sidetrack their way out of discussions.

If it wasn't for that bit of foam  knocking off all those heat tiles, we would still have our flagship space shuttle, and the politicos would have one less excuse for shutting NASA down.

In other words, the foam destroyed the Space Shuttle.


"Corjay" wrote:
How much heat friction wind can your body withstand? 110 degrees in 60-70 mph winds? Beyond that you're a roast duck. Between the temperature and speed differences, that's 4 extra zeroes.

Now how many knife stabs can you withstand compared to a KH size 4 ship? Or how many grenades? Or how many bullet wounds?


Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, the same as asking me how much kinetic energy my body can withstand as compared to the thin titanium/aluminum skin of a modern aircraft(assuming it flies down that low), instead of foccussing on the fact that a round of 7.62 mm NATO hardball can puncture both my skin and an airplane's with the same ease. 

 
"Corjay" wrote:
A ship can certainly take hundreds of times more punishment than any human.


A spaceship is another form of aircraft, not the battleship Yamato with rocket engines, Corjay. You set off a frag grenade next to a grounded assault scout, and the resulting fragments will puncture the skin and prevent that section of the ship from being pressurized...enough fragments might even get in and wreck vital systems, or just sever wiring, either of which will do harm to the craft...if you find a way to limpet the grenade to the ship's skin, you will do more damage; you stick it on or in one of the engines, the engine's out of comission and spewing radiation all over the place. 

Why? An assault scout can only be armored so much, before its engines are no longer able to lift it.

Even if the spacecraft never comes closer to a planet than high orbit, you still can only armor it so much before the ability of its engines to move it through space and its attitude control thrusters have equal difficulty in maneuvering the ship...there's no weight in space, but mass still remains. 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Anonymous's picture
Corjay (not verified)
October 21, 2007 - 3:18pm
Will wrote:
Corjay wrote:
So you say protective tiles were knocked off protecting the shuttle from 3,200 degrees of heat. So what destroyed the shuttle? Knocking off the tile, or 3,200 degrees of heat friction in 10,000 mph winds? (I'm being conservative with the temperature and wind speed.)


Let me break this down for those who sidetrack their way out of discussions.

If it wasn't for that bit of foam knocking off all those heat tiles, we would still have our flagship space shuttle, and the politicos would have one less excuse for shutting NASA down.

In other words, the foam destroyed the Space Shuttle.
It wasn't "all those heat tiles." It was 1 heat tile. If the space shuttle were docked on the ground and you knock off a tile with a piece of foam, will the space shuttle explode? No. So the foam did not destroy the shuttle. You are assuming a false cause. The foam removed a vital piece protecting the shuttle from destructive forces. The absence of the tile allowed extreme forces to destroy the shuttle. The destructive forces destroyed the space shuttle, not the foam. Foam removed the tile. That is all it did. The foam came off of the boosters that launched the shuttle during take-off from Cape Canaveral. The space shuttle was not destroyed at that time. The space shuttle was destroyed on re-entry many, many hours afterward. So clearly the foam could not have destroyed the space shuttle.

Will wrote:
"Corjay" wrote:
How much heat friction wind can your body withstand? 110 degrees in 60-70 mph winds? Beyond that you're a roast duck. Between the temperature and speed differences, that's 4 extra zeroes.

Now how many knife stabs can you withstand compared to a KH size 4 ship? Or how many grenades? Or how many bullet wounds?
Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, the same as asking me how much kinetic energy my body can withstand as compared to the thin titanium/aluminum skin of a modern aircraft(assuming it flies down that low), instead of foccussing on the fact that a round of 7.62 mm NATO hardball can puncture both my skin and an airplane's with the same ease.
Declaring a statement irrelevant does not make it irrelevant. In fact, what you just said proves the point even further. A knife can penetrate your skin just as easily as that NATO hardball, but can it puncture the skin of an airplane with the same ease? No. Increasing the power used so that everything falls pray to the example is a red herring. Your example does not apply to what you claim it to. It helps me, not you.

Will wrote:
"Corjay" wrote:
A ship can certainly take hundreds of times more punishment than any human.


A spaceship is another form of aircraft, not the battleship Yamato with rocket engines, Corjay. You set off a frag grenade next to a grounded assault scout, and the resulting fragments will puncture the skin and prevent that section of the ship from being pressurized...enough fragments might even get in and wreck vital systems, or just sever wiring, either of which will do harm to the craft...if you find a way to limpet the grenade to the ship's skin, you will do more damage; you stick it on or in one of the engines, the engine's out of comission and spewing radiation all over the place.

Why? An assault scout can only be armored so much, before its engines are no longer able to lift it.
I seriously beg to differ on this. A grenade cannot puncture or destroy a tank. It's not going to puncture or destroy a spaceship. The tank is far, far smaller than an assulat scout, and its armor would be standard construction on such a large craft. An armored assault scout is going to have thicker armor than a tank, because it is going to endure much more punishment. Can a grenade harm a nuclear submarine? Not in the least. It would hardly even scratch the titanium hull.

Will wrote:
Even if the spacecraft never comes closer to a planet than high orbit, you still can only armor it so much before the ability of its engines to move it through space and its attitude control thrusters have equal difficulty in maneuvering the ship...there's no weight in space, but mass still remains.
They overcame this issue by including Atomic engines. The fact that they include atomic engines shows how much power is being generated.

By the way, I didn't appreciate the "those who sidetrack their way out of discussions" comment. This was inappropriate to the nature of the discussion. I'm addressing the issues directly with reasoning. Not one instance of sidetracking. I'd appreciate it if you would keep a civil discussion civil.

I'm sorry, but I think we're at an empass on this one. I can tell by language used that both of us are entrenched on the issue. So I'm just going to tone things back down and let this one go if you will, and just agree to disagree.

Will's picture
Will
October 21, 2007 - 4:05pm
@Corjay, I think that would best, yes.

w00t, I don't know if there is a good resolution mechanic, other than using the Advanced Game's Damage Table for personal weapons versus low-flying/grounded spacecraft, with a suitable modifier.

 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Shadow Shack's picture
Shadow Shack
October 25, 2007 - 3:08pm

Corjay wrote:
How much heat friction wind can your body withstand? 110 degrees in 60-70 mph winds?


More than that, I travel 60-70mph on my motorcyles out here in the summer heat where it's 110+ for 4-8 weeks LOL


Still, I'd like to think that there's some treatment to ship hulls that is a far cry more efficient than our modern day 1970s technology shuttle heat tiles. Like that stuff that was applied to the capsule bottoms in the 1960s...

I'm not overly fond of Zeb's Guide...nor do I have any qualms stating why. Tongue out

My SF website

Will's picture
Will
October 26, 2007 - 9:06am
In my SF campaign, hulls are made of a mono-molecular carbon-fiber material which is more resistant to heat and slightly more durable than steel 

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation

Gilbert's picture
Gilbert
December 15, 2007 - 11:28am
  Hey, the tile got a critical hit. And just like erosion the "wind" and "heat" took its toll on the cohesion of the tiles and adhesive and the "wind" turbulence of which caused a vacuum that sucked the tile off not blew it off. And the hull of the shuttle is made to withstand going in and out of atmospheres not take combat damage. A star ship can emphasize the hull to take combat damage because it doesn't have to go into the atmosphere. This is over kill to the extreme on the difference between the two. Any more depth to understand what happened you need to take a physics class.

Will's picture
Will
November 28, 2008 - 5:51pm
KE=½mv^2.

That's what happened to the shuttle.

One could always armor the hull with ice to fend off lasers, ala the Longknife novels.

"You're everything that's base in humanity," Cochrane continued. "Drawing up strict, senseless rules for the sole reason of putting you at the top and excluding anyone you say doesn't belong or fit in, for no other reason than just because you say so."


—Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stephens, Federation